Posts by Paralipomenon

58

What do you say if you get asked "Are you an Apostate?"

by KateWild in

i am reuniting with past students and return visits.. i met up with a young lad i used to call on.

he is not baptised, but at university in his 20's and living away from home.

his mother is a jw and his father is not.

Paralipomenon

"I don't use labels, it is no different than racism"

18

is this where Beliefnet went?

by OutInTheCold in

hello, some of you old friends and not so much.

i'm wondering why my 13 year-old account from beliefnet is in your database.. interesting.... so that's how you get your numbers for "members".

from other forums.. lol.

Paralipomenon

If having your old posts here retained disturb you, I would suggest not searching the term "internet archive"

35

New ExJW closed group forming on Facebook

by Watchtower-Free in

this is not my group.

just fyi.

uniting all ex jehovah's witnesses whether previously studying, inactive, disfellowshipped, disassociated, or thinking of joining the jws.

Paralipomenon

Given the number of people that have been outed just by revealing a small piece of personal infomation on this site should warn off any faders.

For some reason there are many active Witnesses that constantly follow ex-Witness groups and sites looking for clues to identify faders. If being "outed" is a concern for you, always be very careful what you post and where.

3

Interview with an Apostate: Paralipomenon

by Paralipomenon in

in all, i don't let very many see my true self.

are your parents / family jws?.

my brothers initially said they wouldn't but then after trying to convince me to come back each of them decided to shun me instead.. were you or are you still being shunned by those who didn't leave?.

Paralipomenon

Tell us a little about yourself and your family.

I answered all the questions first then went back to this to fill it in. In all, I don't let very many see my true self. What I wrote here was a different experience for me and gave a glimpse into my life and personal thoughts that feels very foreign to be so brutally honest.

I am a programmer focusing on mobile apps. I love programming. It has such logic and order that I appreciate. My wife and I met as Witnesses and we have known each other since our late teens. We are coming up on 15 years of marriage.

Many people say they have a perfect marriage, but closer examination reveals it to be just wishful thinking. I feel that I have as close to a perfect marriage as is possible. We don't fight but there is still passion. To date we have had 3 actual real arguments that could be termed as "fights".

We just click.

We have 3 boys that are growing up into fine young men and really they are my life.

Were you a born in or a convert?

Born in

Are your parents / family JWs?

My parents and two brothers are the only JWs

How many generations have been JWs?

2

Did you hold any position in the WTS? (MS, Elder etc...)

Nope, I really tried and regardless of what I did I was always told I had to do more. It was later that I found out that my father had been deleted twice and as such I wouldn't be allowed to join the inner circle.

Did you *really* believe in the bible, in spirits (angels, demons)?

At a young age I really believed it since my parents told me so. The older I got, the less believeable it seemed. I wanted to believe it, but deep down it just didn't make sense to me.

Did you get baptised? When and why?

When I was 10, my oldest brother was getting baptized and I wanted to as well. It was merely a challenge to me. I asked to take the questions and they humored me. Back then the questions were administered in 3 sessions by 3 different elders. I passed the first set, then the second but the elder that did the second set talked to my parents afterward. I listened in and heard him telling my parents that I knew all the answers, but it didn't reflect actual understanding. He could continue with the questions, but felt that it wasn't in my best interest to continue at this age.

My mother was very upset. She wanted to have a "little witness superstar" that she could parade around. She pushed back for a bit arguing that I should be baptized but in the end my father won out and I didn't retake the questions until I was 13.

I just wanted to make my parents happy and have people pay attention to how smart I was.

What was the initial trigger that made you start questioning things?

I always asked questions, about everything. I loved knowledge and read extensively (thus my avatar being book) At first the questions were easy and my mom would give me the answers, as I got into my mid teens the questions become too complex for her though she was proud at me for "thinking deeply". She would have me ask elders in the congregation who would answer what they could until the questions become too difficult to answer and the replies became "Trust in Jehovah" or "Have faith that Jehovah will provide an answer".

That was not good enough for me, I needed the answers and started questioning why some topics couldn't be addressed.

Where did you find information? Internet sites? Books?

I had no idea about Ray Franz until I found posts about him on here. I posted on the Usenet under alt.discussion.jehovah-witness, initally as an apologist, then later as an apostate. Turned out the evil apostates were the ones that had the answers to my questions and many questions I should have asked myself.

How difficult or painful was the process of leaving?

The actual leaving process was horrible. I really thought family came first and was shocked to be cast aside.

Was it a big dramatic exit or a careful quiet fade?

Quiet fade out

Did you convince anyone else to leave with you?

I was able to convince my wife to leave. In fact it was her leaving that was the catalyst for me taking a firm stand to leave

How were your family relations affected by your decision?

Both my parents and in-laws shunned me automatically. My brothers initially said they wouldn't but then after trying to convince me to come back each of them decided to shun me instead.

Were you or are you still being shunned by those who didn't leave?

Yup

How long have you now been out?

Since 2007

Was there anything you looked forward to doing when you left?

Celebrating Christmas

What are you most proud of achieving since you left?

Raising my children as non-jws.

Is there anything you miss about life in the congregation?

Way back our congregation used to hold summer BBQ's or gatherings after the book study. They were genuinely enjoyable but as I grew older, some people moved in, others out and cliques formed that made these gatherings more status oriented and less enjoyable.

Red pill or blue pill? Do you regret waking up to reality at all?

Never, I would rather live as a pauper in truth, than a rich man in a lie. It is just the way I am wired.

Did you become an atheist or transfer your faith elsewhere?

I peg myself as agnostic. I don't feel there is a God or Intelligent creator, but I also recognise that humans are mere infants in sense of cosmic awareness. We are just waking up as a species and as such I cannot rule out a God. Some times I look at the complexity of DNA. How a single egg and sperm cell can act as the blueprint to grow people and animals, but it is a question to be answered, not a mystical thing, never to be understood.

I marvel at the complexities of the universe, not to give thanks to a creator, but in how much we have yet to learn

How do you now feel about religion in general?

I have studied many religions and haven't found any that weren't an attempt to attain power or control others

Do you feel any guilt celebrating xmas or birthdays or doing any other JW "no-no"s?

I don't feel guilt, but I get no enjoyment out of my birthday. I never had one so I have no happy memories to pull on to remember. The only thing that prompts a feeling of guilt is singing the national anthemn. It just doesn't come up enough in my life to get used to it.

Have you attended any face-to-face meetups of ex-JWs?

I did attend a large gathering that was organized on JWD in Toronto.

Describe your circle of friends - mostly other ex-JWs or regular people?

I am a very guarded individual. I am quite comfortable with who I am and don't have a burning desire for friendship. I hope I don't smother her, but my wife is my best friend. Beyond her I tollerate others, keep in contact with a few I met online, but I am not a stereotypical male. The best I can describe myself is a proud geek. I enjoy the company of other geeks, but have very few I would actually call "friend"

Do you tell people about your JW past?

If it applies, I am embarassed over being one. If it comes up, I will answer any questions and provide a fine anti-witness, but it is not something I want people to think of when they talk about me.

Do you feel animosity or pity toward current JWs?

animosity towards the leadership and those that abuse their position or power to bully others. Pity for most of the rank and file who really believe what they are doing is God's will.

How do you respond to witnesses when they call at your door?

They don't. We get a drive by tracting close to the memorial, but my wife told the last two that visited that she would call the police if they ever returned

Storm the barricades or tend to the wounded? (do you favor activism or support)

I feel both are necessary but in moderation. Over the top activism can detract from the message and too much support can prevent someone from ever moving on.

What do you think is the most effective approach to reaching people still in?

I think you need to find why they remain a member, is it family, fear of death, a sense of community? This isn't something that will be volunteered and not every member can be reached.

Do you think the WTS can or should be destroyed, will continue on as-is or grow / change?

They need reform to keep growing. They are too large now to use fear tactics to control the minds of others. So long as they try to control the masses, they will keep slipping through the fingers at an increasing rate.

How has your life been impacted by your JW past?

Are there things in your life you blame the WTS for?

My parents were very strict with me as over comepensation for my wild older brother. I was not allowed to date which led me to feel inadequate dating later on. Financially, I have had to provide everything for myself. I had to pay for my own education and settle for a college rather than university due to my parent's poor choices with money.

JW upbringing - a protection or a curse?

I did learn to read early and speak to the public, a skill I carry with me today. I cannot say if the same abilities would have been cultivated in me if I were raised in a non JW family.

How do you fill your time now it's not filled with meetings and field service?

I still read and play games online. I spend time with my wife and sons.

Do you still have an interest in JW beliefs and doctrines?

Only to the point of looking for the "silver bullet" that will wake my parents up.

How much of your time is still spent on JW related matters?

Each day I spend 10-30 mins in different communities providing my experiences or comments

What do you think of the ex-JW community?

the ex-JW community is largely flawed. While it takes on properties of communities from other standard online sites, it is fraught with some unique examples you will not find elsewhere. There are a great many whose experiences and viewpoints portray wisdom and genuine caring, and there are also some I term "emotional vampires" who thrive on attention whether real or fabricated.

Most of my viewpoints are shades of grey but I feel the ex-JW community has more positives to offer than negatives.

Do you see yourself still being associated with the ex-JW community in 5 or 10 years time?

If my family is still around and members, I will likely still be involved.

Do you fear the future?

I don't fear it, but I do feel sad about it. I don't believe in life after death so as I age it feels like getting to the end of a good book. You look at how many pages are left and feel sorry that it will eventually be over. Wishing it wouldn't end is naive and I know there isn't a sequel for me to pick up.

The prospect of living forever is very appealing, but lie is still a lie even if I wish it were true. I would rather face the future with tears in my eyes than turn my back to it to live in denial with a smile.

What advice would you give to anyone starting the journey of leaving the WTS?

Know yourself. Discover yourself. Always ask questions. Don't get lost in hate or self pity. It may seem overwhelming, but it gets better.

What would you change in your life if you could go back and talk to yourself?

I would tell myself to get out earlier and get university degree.

Do you have any regrets about life since you left?

I like to think that I have made the most of my life given what I started with. For me, there are several regrets about my childhood, but it is in the past. I cannot alter it so it is not worth time spent dwelling on what could have been. For me, I have come to terms that it is my role to break the cycle and give my children the choices I didn't have. It is a strange mixture of pride and jealousy to watch them enjoy their life. I wish my childhood could have been like I am providing for my children, but since wasn't, I am proud to see my boys making the most of it.

Can we read your life-story anywhere? (links to online or books)

My attempts to wake my wife up and eventual leaving played out on these forums. You can view the topics I have created here to see it unfold.

Want to share your own story? Please use the Interview with an Apostate: Template and post it in the Personal Experiences & Reunions section with the title "Interview with an Apostate: [your name or alias]"

28

Photo of Russel Exploring Giza Pyramids

by Gerard in

i found this in a french web site, i thought it was interesting.. .

french text (original): http://pages.globetrotter.net/mleblank/doctrine/pyrwt.html.

translation: http://www.letusreason.org/jw16.htm

Paralipomenon

Just remember kids, the internet is forever!

11

Molested Bees

by falseprophet in

bees that are molested.. a song lyric in the song book.. please comment on what you think this meant.

is is still in the new song book?.

Paralipomenon

I had the" birds and the bees" talk with my sons, but I left out the part where you mollest the bees.

36

What are the best questions?

by MissyM in

jw
friends

what would you say are the best questions to ask a jw which they will not be able to answer and may make them question their beliefs?.

what (if you are a former jw) made you question the "truth"?.

Paralipomenon

I like to ask them how did Jesus inform Rutherford that the Bible Students would be his exclusive channel on earth in 1919?

To date I have not gotten even an attempt to address this point.

I ask "If I claimed that in 1985, I was selected by Jesus to exclusively preach his will, what would you say?"

Invariably they would scoff and ask what proof I had.

Then I follow up with the question above. You can watch them starting to shut down trying to explain why they would demand proof for my claim but not of their leaders. They cannot refute my claim without refuting the claim of their Governing Body.

As a side note, there actually is an answer. In "The Finished Mystery" Rutherford claims that Jesus sent C. T. Russell as an angel to continue to guide and direct the Watchtower Corporation. I don't usually bring that up since Witnesses seem trained to dismiss much of what was previously written as "old light".

26

How Long Will ARMAGEDDON Last?

by Cold Steel in

according to the jw doctrine, can armageddon happen any day now?

is it possible that it could happen tomorrow?.

will it last minutes, hours, days?

Paralipomenon

This reminded me of a good friend I had in my hall growing up.

We used to sit back and make wisecracks and largely get glared at and scolded.

In reference to the start of Armageddon, the public speaker mentioned the scripture that Jehovah's reaction would like as if someone had touched his eye.

I turned to my friend to make a smartass remark and discovered him there, staring deadpan at the speaker, without any emotion, rubbing his finger over the surface of his eye.

I have no idea how he was able to keep doing it, but I audibly laughed out lough and had to make a hasty retreat to the bathroom to try to supress the giggles which was not easy. I cannot hear that scripture without an image of my friend masaging his eyeball. Even now typing this up I have a giant grin on my face.

169

Challenge to Athiests - is Religion a Pox on Mankind?

by jgnat in

i've spent the last few years examining my core beliefs to test what still stands.

i've let go of an inviolate bible, demoted jesus to a failed prophet, and god as unable to act against injustice.

our universe made itself.

Paralipomenon

I liken religion to a man standing in quicksand.

He is slowing sinking but has time to think about his situation. After a quick survey of the surroundings, there is no easy escape. It looks like he is going to die and he knows it. Rather than put all his energy to trying out different strategies and attempting escape, he thinks to himself that someone will come along and save him. He keeps thinking this until he eventually is completely engulved and dies.

We, as a species, are aware of our eventual death yet religion is like the example above. We convince ourselves that we really aren't in danger since a benevolent diety will save us in some way.

What we SHOULD do is realize that we are in a desperate situation and focus all of humanity's resources into curing disease and preventing as many causes of death as possible.

Humanity as a group seems to have shrugged, even most atheists who rather than focus everything on curing death, accept that they are going to die.

If this was a hostile alien force, or a worldwide plague, we would all be united into saving ourselves, but death is silent. It is everywhere and slow, like quicksand slowly consuming one life after another.

When comparing the two, at least athiesm is forcing people to recognize we are dying, that help is not coming. That is at least progress, religion contributes nothing other than a soothing euthanasia, so yes, I do think that religion is a pox on mankind. Largely not a malevolent pox, but a great sadness rather than a rallying cry.

75

I told the elders that I would take blood and donate blood

by Daniel1555 in

i found it important to be honest with my wife.

so i told her about my conscience decision that in a medical urgency i want blodless medicine but if a transfusion of blood or the 4 prohibited components is necessary to save my life or health i would accept it.

this would apply especially also for our child (that is not such a problem as in our country the wts recommends to comply with doctors as they have the right to decide concerning minors).. i showed her the reasons why i came to that conscience decision (biblical and logical reasons) and that jehovah and jesus do not like anyone to die because of this wrong bible application.. .

Paralipomenon

What I would suggest is writing a letter to Bethel and ask if you would be punished for following medical advice from your doctor. Ask if signing the blood card is mandatory even if it goes against your personal wishes. State your reasoning and affirm that you have no other issues with Watchtower doctrine and which to keep the decision between you and your wife.

When the elders meet with you, mention you sent the letter and that you would like to hold off discussion until they reply.

This puts the elders in a hard position. If they rush to take action and a letter comes back from HQ to the contrary, they will look bad. Watchtower HQ will be very careful not to take a firm stand on the issue as if you end up dying from lack of transfusion, despite your desire to have one, they could be liable in a civil suit. They won't want to give any tangible evidence.

If you want to get cute you could ask if taking 99/100's of blood is acceptable since it is still a fraction.