I revised my thesis here recently, and I also uploaded it to an additional mirror. It's a PDF and approximately 1.4 MB. Here's the download locations if anyone's interested...
- http://www.ichthusstudios.org/Cults/JW/jwthesis.pdf (Probably Faster)
- http://www.freewebs.com/apluspc/jwthesis.pdf
Shaolu
JoinedPosts by Shaolu
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My Thesis
by Shaolu ini revised my thesis here recently, and i also uploaded it to an additional mirror.
it's a pdf and approximately 1.4 mb.
here's the download locations if anyone's interested.... .
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Shaolu
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child getting baptized
by Cindyrenee innine year old grandson studying to be babtized.
any thoughts on this??
i think it is insane.
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Shaolu
Well, if it helps any, you could always appeal to Jewish tradition. It's been the tradition in Jewish culture (going back to centuries before Christ) that the age of accountability is 13. This was set in a time when a young man was basically considered an adult at 13, in the capacity of serving as a junior member of society and what not. In other words, it was theoretically possible and not uncommon back then for a teenager to get married, have children, etc. We then flash forward to the 21st century where we have infantilized our youth to such an extent that 21-year-old men just get out of college without any real work experience and are expected to be completely immature in all matters of life (alcohol, sexual escapades, general interests, etc.). In fact, this is largely the reason why agencies won't rent you a car until you're 25, and insurance companies have higher rates for young adults. So, the Watchtower believes a person under the age of 13 who is literally considered an "imbecile" by US law, who isn't allowed to drive a car, drink, vote, buy glue, enter contracts, etc. *and* wouldn't even be considered accountable under the Torah by Jewish custom... This person is supposedly fully capable of entering into a lifelong association with an international publishing corporation and agreeing to adhere to its bylaws (or even understand them) on threat of shunning? Absolutely retarded. I happen to personally know a family that had their daughter baptized at 9 years old (one of the elders at my judicial committee meeting actually). I think "YoursChelbie" said it quite concisely, "And this from a group of zealots who claim Catholic infant baptism is wrong...."
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Judicial Committee Audio Recording
by Shaolu inabout a week ago i had my little meeting with "the bobs" (yuk yuk), and i got the whole thing digitally recorded.
it's available online, along with a written transcript here...
http://www.ichthusstudios.org/cults/jw/
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Shaolu
I really need to remember to insert br tags, or just stop using HTML formatting...
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Judicial Committee Audio Recording
by Shaolu inabout a week ago i had my little meeting with "the bobs" (yuk yuk), and i got the whole thing digitally recorded.
it's available online, along with a written transcript here...
http://www.ichthusstudios.org/cults/jw/
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Shaolu
Wasanelder Once, you said "To present this proceeding as being the meeting of two parties coming together to have a peaceful discussion is a fraud, by your own admission." I agree, and I don't believe I presented it in that light. If that's the impression you got, I apologize. I actually started this thread with the following statement: "About a week ago I had my little meeting with 'the Bobs' (yuk yuk), and I got the whole thing digitally recorded." I'm guessing you've never seen Office Space. In the film the "Bobs" are two "consultants" who everyone in the office knows are really there to find people to fire. With that reference alone I was attempting to imply that the elders were calling me in to drop the axe. They definitely had foreknowledge of my disposition and viewpoint, and I wasn't attempting to say otherwise. My socratic approach to the conversation wasn't intended to convey that I was a poor innocent victim, but was really an attempt on my part to keep them talking, keep the meeting going as long as possible, and just see what would happen. I also really felt a lot of pity for poor Joseph. If you could have seen his face, he really looked ashamed to even be there (the only time he said anything was in the opening prayer). It was to him I offered my thesis, and perhaps the unreasonableness he witnessed from his fellow elders might give him pause to think (probably not, but I can hope). So anyhow, yeah, I think both the elders and I had a general idea of what the meeting was going to be. It was not my intent to assert it was otherwise. Hopefully my committee record was of some use nonetheless. Oh, and my thesis is in PDF format as you asked. You should be able to download it here. It's probably not anything you haven't read before, but I wrote it with the idea of possibly helping people I know and love still in the organization.
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Judicial Committee Audio Recording
by Shaolu inabout a week ago i had my little meeting with "the bobs" (yuk yuk), and i got the whole thing digitally recorded.
it's available online, along with a written transcript here...
http://www.ichthusstudios.org/cults/jw/
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Shaolu
*sigh* Sorry about forgetting the breakline tags...
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Judicial Committee Audio Recording
by Shaolu inabout a week ago i had my little meeting with "the bobs" (yuk yuk), and i got the whole thing digitally recorded.
it's available online, along with a written transcript here...
http://www.ichthusstudios.org/cults/jw/
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Shaolu
Just to speak a little in my own defense here... If I were to have my friend John have the recorders on him instead, would it have been lying to say "No" to the basic question "Do you have any recorders?", because after all it would not have been *I* that had the recorders in that case, would it? What if the elder had simply asked "You know you can't record this, right?" and I answered in the affirmative, but recorded anyhow? Somehow I don't think either of these scenarios would be justifiable in your eyes, neither would any possible scenario where someone wished to record the proceedings covertly. I will freely admit I wasn't completely open with my responses. However, I believe there is a subtle but very distinct and important difference between openness and honesty. While I was not completely forthcoming, I believe I was technically honest. I was asked "Do you have a second one?" after handing over my one tape recorder. I responded "No I don't. That's the only tape recorder I have." And it was, in fact, the only tape recorder I had. What else would you have me say? No other technically honest response would have allowed me to continue recording the conversation discretely, as is my privilege in accordance with Arizona state law. Call it "word games" if you like, but I never have objected to that now have I? You might condemn the Watchtower for playing "word games" with regards to its UN association, for instance. I, on the other hand, would simply argue that it was completely hypocritical no matter what kind of excuse they might want to concoct. Additionally, there's a difference between playing "theocratic warfare" with the media or something, and it's another thing to do the same with your own "flock". Also, to explain a bit on why they were obviously so insistent... I informed them at least *twice* that I wished to record any conversation I had with them. Additionally, I gave a copy of my thesis to one of my brothers who is still a very active JW. In fact, I recorded the proceedings largely with him in mind, as it was he who urged me to speak with the elders to have them "help" me. Sadly, I have a feeling he may have informed Joseph (with whom he works) ahead of time about the last page of my thesis which states, in part... "If you're one of the three elders at my judicial committee and you're actually reading this right now, I'd just like to mention that in the state of Arizona it is legally permissible to record a conversation so long as one party is aware that it is being recorded. In this case, I would be that party." I had intended them to read that in the course of our discussion, but I think they may have been tipped off beforehand. In any case, they had plenty of reason to suspect that I would be recording the conversation, but they proceeded with the meeting anyhow. Now, on the point of the sincerity of my questions... Did I go into the meeting expecting that they would be able to convince me of anything? No, not really. Does that make my questions any less sincere? I don't think so. If an elder could honestly somehow convince me that the Watchtower had not joined the UN, that 607 B.C.E actually has any historical validity at all, and that everything I've learned in this past year about the organization's history and the falsity of their doctrine was somehow wrong, then yeah I would definitely want to know. Simply because you believe you already have the answer doesn't mean the question is any less sincere. If I wasn't open-minded, I wouldn't be writing on this forum in the first place now would I? I believed I already had the answer as to what constituted "God's Organization (TM)", but unlike many JW's I honestly was willing to test that claim (at least I was after a slow painful process of admitting my doubts to myself and slowly starting to examine the abundant material online). Whether you think what I did was completely ethical or not, the facts of the matter are irrefutable. The elders were not there to truly "readjust" my thinking. They weren't there to address my concerns at all. When I simply asked some basic questions I was completely shut down, and so I finally opened up and boldly stated my position. Rather than trying to correct my position (however offensive it may have been to them) they simply ended the inquisition and told my friend that they hate me and that God hates me. I went into the meeting not completely sure what to expect (although I had an idea), and my entire purpose in going was not to show how righteous I am or get some incredibly damning evidence or anything like that. I went to record my JC meeting most simply to have a relatively undeniable account of the proceedings. At the very least I believe I demonstrated that it was not the intent of these elders to assist me in any way. I was told by "Brother Russell" when he invited me to the meetings that they really desired to "resolve any spiritual disparity between us". The truth of the matter is that they did not want to "resolve" the "disparity" but really to *solidify* such disparity by cutting me off completely. Is this the greatest example of unloving treatment at the hands of authoritarian theocrats? Probably not. That wasn't my point, and I think you really presumed too much in your assertions, "Wasanelder Once". Whether or not you think I "failed" in whatever goal you surmised I must have had, you failed to realize the one goal I did actually have in recording the conversation: Namely, to have a record of the proceedings open to review. In that, I think I accomplished my goal quite effectively. Whether you agree with what I said or they said or neither, at least you're free to reach that conclusion based on what was actually said. If nothing had been recorded, that wouldn't exactly have been possible now would it?
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Judicial Committee Audio Recording
by Shaolu inabout a week ago i had my little meeting with "the bobs" (yuk yuk), and i got the whole thing digitally recorded.
it's available online, along with a written transcript here...
http://www.ichthusstudios.org/cults/jw/
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Shaolu
In case anyone's interested, the "About Me" section of my thesis might give some context on the meeting. It can be downloaded here --> http://www.freewebs.com/apluspc/jwthesis.pdf
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Judicial Committee Audio Recording
by Shaolu inabout a week ago i had my little meeting with "the bobs" (yuk yuk), and i got the whole thing digitally recorded.
it's available online, along with a written transcript here...
http://www.ichthusstudios.org/cults/jw/
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Shaolu
My favorite part is when "Brother Russell" (no joke) said to my friend, in regards to me, "I absolutely do hate him, just as Jehovah does."
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Judicial Committee Audio Recording
by Shaolu inabout a week ago i had my little meeting with "the bobs" (yuk yuk), and i got the whole thing digitally recorded.
it's available online, along with a written transcript here...
http://www.ichthusstudios.org/cults/jw/
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Shaolu
About a week ago I had my little meeting with "the Bobs" (yuk yuk), and I got the whole thing digitally recorded. It's available online, along with a written transcript here... http://www.ichthusstudios.org/Cults/JW/