Posts by RAF

26

How can you be faithful yet not gullible or misled?

by The Dragon in

i hear all the time how leaders justify why people should buy into and follow their guesses...and the whole defense is if you don't you have no faith.. what protects a "faithful" person from becoming prey to a self-exalted leader and their guesses?

or are the faithful meant to be prey or something?.

RAF

Also to further on the subject : calling anyone stupid is a wrong and actually a stupid strategy it only works on weak minds (which always have a potential to become strong at any time = revolt).
Weak minds are those who needs other people to think for them because they miss self confidence but since it's not there thinking process which have lead to their new (but in fact accepted) understanding they won't "really" understandtill they have effectively done the thinking job by their own process if the argument is a good one).
The name calling nor adhominem attacks only talks about the talker fears, beliefs and need to put unusefull argument to win a point for free = red flag lazy tactic - which can work in the moment but not for good (again since any weak mind can become strong at any time for their own good or bad).
Also There are different " name calling " tactique : For instance the JW reasoning book and lots of their litterature is using it all along in a very subtle way : with this kind of sentences : is this the way this should be understood ?This is certainely not the way this should be understood or surely this is not what is to be understood ? ... and lots of others (so if you were thinking the reverse of what they want you to think you may feel dumb).
So : gains / losses / name calling (subtle or not) have to be put aside in the thinking process or in the information/argumentation method to be as honest and effective as possible in respecting the other one thinking process in reminding ourselve that the greater can be tiniest and the tiniest can be the greater (it seems also true, regarding to : faster / slower) at the end (the brain is amazing). That's why under or overestimate anyone (including ourselves) can be missleading.

26

How can you be faithful yet not gullible or misled?

by The Dragon in

i hear all the time how leaders justify why people should buy into and follow their guesses...and the whole defense is if you don't you have no faith.. what protects a "faithful" person from becoming prey to a self-exalted leader and their guesses?

or are the faithful meant to be prey or something?.

RAF

Not sure I've understand the subject you are really talking about but :
Since faith and understanding stay a personnal matter (related to each ones experiences all together).
I've realised that the best way to informe anyone is to give the information (your own way - since we all have our own way) and let him/her free to interprate it ... wheither he/she understands/believes it or not at the moment is not the real point because for some it'll take a second for others it can take years ...
Not because they are more or less smart, but because each one of us deal with the same "kind and themes" of information in a different order of priority and ways (related to their immediate needs, personal experiences and habits related to how their thinking process have been built through years of education). So you can try to push them with any argument it won't really help (they will more likely reject it).
But every information stays as a hint in their subconscious which they will recover when something in their experience will call it and help them to resolve the puzzle by coherence through thinking from experiences.
Also it is still (and more over in the matter of religion / faith) to remind anyone that whatever says that you will gain something have a potential of manipulation ... So it's all about thinking about the matter without what we are suppose to gain out of whatever to get a clearer view (way less subjective) on the matter.
And, since we do not have the same (not basic = eating, sleeping, moving) needs and in the same order ... helping nor manipulating someone is not about pushing them to what pleases you, it's more effective to talk about what is unpleasant in general (it's a manipulation system - which give a sense of emergency to fasten the thinking process on the right or wrong side) So it can be for the good (unstead of the bad).
So : it's all about talking about the gains and losses (to put a red flag in anyonces conscious and subconcious)to get someones attention (for him/her to register the informationeven if he/she do not use it the right way or at all at first), way before the real arguments as logic.
Also as you saidplaying dumb is a good strategy ... it makes the other one wanting to help you by thinking himself about the subject ... that's when little by little you can in talking about his/her argument telling about your own thinking process and understanding ... which in fact is a way to put forth your argument without having the other one thinking that you are trying to convince him/her and allow him/her to put less subjective barriere to what you are saying.
That's why spychologists just ask question and let you answer them yourself (they just give you some hints along the process at if possible the right moment for patient - sometimes it's to early - and it does the reverses effect - because the patient is not ready to deal with it).
So it's never about who said what but how and when it is understandable relatevely to each one (regarding to what pressure him/her and please him/her = his/her priorities).

148

the Daily-Dedicate-a-Song-to-a-Special-Someone Thread

by Crumpet in

jw
friends

rather than hijack another thread and inspired by fullofdoubtnow and dedpoets music for the wedding thread i thought i would start a little "dedications" thread - this isn't the sort of dedication symbolised by dunking though!.

(i expect to see ggbg and ofg here forthwith for some romantic dedications).. i'd like to dedicate the following to someone special - "bodies - by drowning pool" .

they probably wont see this, but the thought that counts!.

RAF

This lyrics caught me since the first time I've heard it ... And the music is just right for it (native/idian spirit floating in the air)
... so here it is ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkaY_lc_2UM
ENIGMA - "Return To Innocence"
That's not the beginning of the end
That's the return to yourself
The return to innocence
Love - Devotion
Feeling - Emotion
Love - Devotion
Feeling - Emotion
Don't be afraid to be weak
Don't be too proud to be strong
Just look into your heart my friend
That will be the return to yourself
The return to innocenceIf you want, then start to laughIf you must, then start to cryBe yourself don't hide
Just believe in destinyDon't care what people say
Just follow your own way
Don't give up and use the chance
To return to innocenceThat's not the beginning of the end
That's the return to yourself
The return to innocence
Don't care what people say
Follow just your own way Follow just your own way
Don't give up, don't give up
To return, to return to innocence.
If you want then laugh
If you must then cry
Be yourself don't hide
Just believe in destiny.

14

How far have you come?

by done4good in

jw
friends

the recent thread on veterans made me think of this.

for me, i can now say i am proudly patriotic, hell, i even think being "proud" is a good thing.

these are things that would have seen reprehensible to me as a witness, and even a short while after i left.

RAF

Patriotisme / Religion ... hum doesn't it lead to the same things somehow? = subjective attachement; which often leads to many kinds of wars nor divisions related to frontlines, cultures and races ... Seems very close to me again.

44

Love And Marriage Was The Watchtowers Way An Advantage?

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

love and marriage was the watchtowers way an advantage?the thought of one man and woman bonded through matrimony was always appealing.

the society used to stress chaperons, however, i think in todays day and age.

however, did the societys way prove helpful in certain respects?.

RAF

Jellcat8224
just silly, not to mention irresponsible!
to resume in my opinion in a few words to qualify the whole WTBS Matter !
When rules takes over love ... and that's biblical statement too (since loving God is equivalent to loving your brothers) ... you have exactly the reverse than what Christ want lead us.
It's not the right rules which lead to love it's love which lead to the right rules in the right time ... it's not a detail ...
Love have a lot to do with respect (like : allowing the other one to be free or not ready = not ready to get married or of course not wanting the cake and eat it and so on).
Also it's not God which lead to love someone, it's just our heart from pure love nor needs and if only about the later the WTBS policies becomes even more develish (because it's disturbing their followers understanding on and from their real needs)
sammielee24
The Watchtower's way is detrimental to personal growth
Yep in so many aspects (including no education but there one) / and matters ...
Love the Watchtower before all others
That's what they ask indirectly (in God's name by policies) and Oh that's idolatry !!!
So no the WTBS is playing game on other peoples lives with there silly and irresponsible advices which they won't take responsability for (the follower will be the one who didn't understand of course ... but somehow it's true).

47

Why does being right = being arrogant?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

what is it about a person's believing they are "right" that leads them to being arrogant?

you've surely noticed that the more sure a person is that he's right, the more likely he is to treat those that disagree with him with disrespect.

it's hard to see how a person can disagree with something that you know is right.

RAF

CD

that can escalate their anger to mammoth levels

... LOL ... I may steal this line from you in the future !!

47

Why does being right = being arrogant?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

what is it about a person's believing they are "right" that leads them to being arrogant?

you've surely noticed that the more sure a person is that he's right, the more likely he is to treat those that disagree with him with disrespect.

it's hard to see how a person can disagree with something that you know is right.

RAF

Maybe this is off topic but (if tired only read what’s written in red)
If for instance faith doesn't only mean believing (in a God) but adhering to something which would be beneficial for everybody ... even if we do have a different view on how there is still a base: respect and balance (also any balance need to be weighted before – there is a big part of research since we are all different in this exercice) ... we all know that at some point ... isn't that (God) everything (to me) talking to us somehow already?
Even if my belief is deeper than, that for lots of reasons (I've finally only want to talk and express myself about it on the most open way just because of our civilisation state = too much people have been hurt by religions in being or not religious ; also too much things by religious leaders and zealots have been stated in a very illogical way - when things (even religious statements) can be taken spiritually in a so open minded way (which make a real BIG difference in the result of the understanding).
Anyway being open minded is anti-dictatorial even for ourselves ... What is good in closing doors (to anything or anyone) Do we know about tomorrow?
Again : No proof = no proof / not enough proof = not enough proof / a non argument is not an argument and an argument is not the entire truth it's only at first a logical statement but it does not always answer the real question, also sometimes the real answer is not always answered by what is asking a specific question / wrong question = wrong answer) ...
For most things reaching the beginning of an answer is much deeper than that (a different culture can lead to such a big difference in the understanding and the way of dealing with something ...).
I mean people like ex JW that any find smart today, was as smart yesterday, where was the difference? Think about it ... (They were and maybe are still stucked - not open minded enough - and when they went wrong just for instance about love and respect of others it had probably something to do with the fact that they had lost there sense of balance and the absolute idea of being right in having the truth (in following a direct but in fact indirect personal agenda in staying closed minded).
We know that even scientists (which are supposed to go by proofs) have been able to be so wrong in lots of statements. When a name replace an argument there is no real argument only a belief (And I feel like too much people do forget about that even when discussing atheism versus theism which is quiet paradoxal).
So much to think about … Staying open minded is the only way to allow ourselves to progress. it's a literal difference in between conservatism and liberalism (when we need a balance in this matter in economy for instance just to make sure to not throwing away anything to replacing it by something which might not be satisfying on the long run - I mean we need to test things) we absolutely need to be totally open to catch whatever information which can lead to the most effective answer or solution.
Also what is a personal business stays a personal business, there is no reason to any of us to laugh about it or even reject it (it's just not our business).

84

Sincere Question to Anyone who Believes in God

by Big Tex in

lately it's occurred to me that one day i will die.

being raised in a cult that teaches you, you will live forever without dying will warp perspectives.

and i've been working hard on coming to terms with that realization, and it's becoming more and more okay.

RAF

Since I'm scared to forget one name ... I'm not going to put any ... MEN !!! WOW ... I've really EAT most of the answers I've read here ... INSPIRING !!! It feels good ...
Big Tex : Sorry you are still dealing with your old demons I hope your soul will find inner peace (for yourself and those who needs you to be happy).
Oooh ... since I've cut it to past it (cause I fell so close to what he said)
Axeman ...
Why am I a christian I sometimes ask myself and to be perfectly honest the reasons reduce to ... Jesus Brilliant untamed tender creative slippery irreducible paradoxically humble - Jesus stands up to scrutiny. He is who I want my God to be'
Wow ... I like the way you've put it !!!
Is this thread INSPIRED OR WHAT ??? Humm I wonder

19

The Question Of ReligionThe Question of Atheism

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

the question of religionthe question of atheism recently, i posted some thoughts and questions about atheism and after having .

read some of the individual thoughts on that thread it is understandable why some.

individuals on both sides feel the way they do.

RAF

Also knowing ourselves have probably a lot to do with all this ...

13

Watchtower Site (edited by me)

by KW13 in

jw
friends

.

click thumbail to increase size.

RAF

... ...