Posts by RAF

7

accuracy of the NWT

by TIMBOB in

my po stopped me today.

he usually does, seems like a nice guy.

anyways, he hands me these sheets of paper and said "i thought you might find these interesting".

RAF

If I say IF he is defending the NWT from JW's point of view on the TETRAGRAMMATION and Jesus position
Think about this
Y : Yod (essence / Potential)
H : he (fecondity)
W : Wav - Vav (capacity / action)
H : He (at the end) = (realisation)
It's not really a name it's the concept of God - Actually you dont need to know more than that to understand what can be wrong or right regarding to the stranslation in this matter
that's why you can translate it both way :I make to become = I am (the basis of existance)
But what makes things to become for anything to be able to say I am (I do existe) the vav and who is the vav in the the TETRAGRAMMATION ?
I Cor 8:6
American Standard Version
".yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him."
New world translation
6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
it does actually means the same ...
God named by YHWH is a process which lead to existence (you can see God as a person but that wouldn't be God !!!)
Confirmation about the idea that God (the Yod in the tetragrammation regarding to the vav is the essence of everything (bigger in this sense) :
Eph 4 : 4-6
American Standard Version
4.[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; 5.one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6.one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.
New world translation
One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.
All this explain the order of the personifications in he following quote and from who everything comes alive (so the son can't be a creation but a creature = a result = maturity after fecondity which gives the capacity) :
John 1:1-3
American Standard Version
1.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2.The same was in the beginning with God.3. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
New world translation
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
All this also explain Jesus answer to the precious question :
John 14: 6-9
American Standard Version
6.Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7.If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8.Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9.Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?
New world translation
6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If YOU men had known me, YOU would have known my Father also; from this moment on YOU know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

(even with the also added it still means the same = the way you see me right now)
then this something became incoherent here
Philipian 2:5-6
American Standard Version
5.Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6.who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with Goda thing to be grasped,7. but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
8. and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross.
New world translation (totally incoherent)
5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.

Eddited to add : their own version admit that at least he was existinig in Gods forms
So any can want to give the WT - NWT version some credit but when you scrutenize the details (just regarding the main thing) they are incohérent or make sur that their translation can validate their postulate ...
So if this guy is an expert ... it's very interesting to know that he wants to support their version

37

The things I see (This last weeks photos)

by Sparkplug in

jw
friends

and wanted to share.

all day long on weekends, lunch, breaks and such there are moments that calm me.

silly stuff.

I'm in love with the first pic it worth to become a Poster, and the one you did of the salon looks very professional (they could use it for adverstizing or to illustrate any article about them) Bravo !!!

125

?Please explain Evolution to me in simple terms

by Guest with Questions in

and please dont give me links to read.

i dont want a complicated version; just a very simple explanation on the theory of evolution, and if possible, in your own words.

many of us are very ignorant on this subject and it seems that a few here are very knowledgeable so i hope you can help me and others also.. also if you believe in the theory of common descent, could you explain that to me also?

RAF

RAF wrote:
:: What would you take as proof?
: No questions left aside
You'll never have proof of anything, then.
But equally, you'll never have proof of a creator.
Right ... not my intention - questionning and sharing is enough (people do what they want with it)
: The thing is why should I stop questioning when there is still no proof - I mean why should I buy the whole thing?
You shouldn't. However, weight of evidence is the key to at least provisional acceptance of any idea, including what are generally accepted as scientific facts. As paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould wrote:
"Generally accepted" is not a proof ... (the earth was flat - was generally accepted)
In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent."
"Confirmed to such a degree" doesn't mean that something else couldn't be confirmed to the same or higher degree if only known or taken into consideration - the perversion is then to think that only one thing already known have such degree
: Why do you buy the whole thing for instance?
Weight of positive evidence. And the great deal of evidence that makes no sense in terms of a super-intelligent creator.
"Positive evidence" (is subjective related to the whole thing) such as your idea of super intelligent creator (we don't have to see God the same way)
: Do you think that we are a Chimp descendant?
No. I think that mankind and chimps are descendants of a common apelike ancestor that lived 7-8 million years ago. But I'm open to revision, since new data can come along at any time.
ok ... it works for me (but on its basis only genetically talking - means that it could have taken place in a very different way and for different reasons)
: Why an Ape more than a PIG?
Body structure, behavior and genetics. Body structure is obvious. Chimps, gorillas and orangutans display some behaviors remarkably like humans, far more so than pigs. Genetically, modern apes and man have DNA that's at least 95% the same, whereas pig DNA is a good deal more different (you can find more information on this with as much effort as I can).
Genetically it can be a lurre ... Not a good example but it gives you the an idea ... someone can look like me more than any of my sister but we still don't have the same parent ... if you believe in evolution whatever we come from would have gain almost the same behaviour regarding to the same environement and needs very quickly (survival instinct and intelligence - related)
: When you only have to crumble the genomes to get a human being (not sure I'm clear here but I think you get what I mean).
I have no idea what you mean.
http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/Discover/discover37.cfm
: And the real question is why would anyone really want to force me (or anyone) to believe the whole thing ...
Is anyone forcing you to believe anything? Now, in a cult like the JWs, enforcement of belief is de rigeur. But not in normal human endeavors.
not in normal human endeavors I agree (are we in a kind of kindom hall here?) to have people forcing there truth on others and calling (people) names/weak - unfaithfull ?
: What does it change in other people lives? Is it not enough to give an opinion and let people make their own opinion? I love to debate but really most of the time it turns into name calling which are not arguments but some kind of intimidation and influence on weak minds I don't want to get into this game but it happens that I really feel like but then it wouldn't satisfy me to win or to lose this way since most of the time there is nothing to lose or win in this anyway.
Debate about important topics tends to generate heated discussion. My personal observation is that the majority of people who don't accept solid scientific notions like evolution is that they have few facts or good arguments to back them up, and so they quickly resort to name-calling when backed into a corner, or they run away from discussion, which frustrates those willing to debate, or they even threaten other debaters with destruction from God. Most often, it's only after those things occur that more scientifically inclined people return the favor.
Yeah ... LOL ... I wonder if this will change a bit ... it doesn't look like (but been there, done that, and might do it again ... I am a human being after all - but not proud when I do ... Oh well ... I've find a solution which helps - coming here only on my good days - or ignoring what I don't feel concerned about / or when the other side is flip/flopping asking me to acknolegde something when they don't want to aknolegde what doesn't allow me to care about an argument already made and taken into consideration ...
It happens that I feel concerned (I've been an ass more than once even without realising it at first) also I've been a dummy more than once too ... (I have to realise it) ... if so it means that I have to admit something ... I just do ... it's easier than denying, I want to go forward and that's not loosing ... So it's not as if I don't want to understand ... I do .... (but no real proof means that I don't have to agree and that something else can be).
Eddited to add : I have nothing to proove, but everything to share, to question and to learn

44

Human Nature

by nvrgnbk in

jw
friends

are we essentially moral beings, corrupted by society?.

or are we in fact amoral, socialized by cultural pressures and religious beliefs?.

RAF

Dogpath :
Very very very interesting !!! didn't know the guy and what he was saying ...
but you know what this is (to me) what says the Gospel globally on the subject (be spiritual - and grow up for real)

125

?Please explain Evolution to me in simple terms

by Guest with Questions in

and please dont give me links to read.

i dont want a complicated version; just a very simple explanation on the theory of evolution, and if possible, in your own words.

many of us are very ignorant on this subject and it seems that a few here are very knowledgeable so i hope you can help me and others also.. also if you believe in the theory of common descent, could you explain that to me also?

RAF

AlanF : What would you take as proof?
No questions left aside ... The thing is why should I stop questioning when there is still no proof - I mean why should I buy the whole thing? Why do you buy the whole thing for instance? Do you think that we are a Chimp descendant? Why an Ape more than a PIG? ... When you only have to crumble the genomes to get a human being (not sure I'm clear here but I think you get what I mean).
It happened that I was sure of some things and most of the time a few questions came to change my point of view (partially t totally)... So I decided to stay open ... being sure is not sure,it closes too much doors ... I want them open ... because of that I stay vague on most things, I only take what stands and if possible in different perspectives even if it leads to original (mine or others) theories (not more or less worthy than other theories since they are theories - it just needs to stand on effectives basis like most not proved theories)
And the real question is why would anyone really want to force me (or anyone) to believe the whole thing ... What does it change in other people lives? Is it not enough to give an opinion and let people make their own opinion? I love to debate but really most of the time it turns into name calling which are not arguments but some kind of intimidation and influence on weak minds I don't want to get into this game but it happens that I really feel like but then it wouldn't satisfy me to win or to lose this way since most of the time there is nothing to lose or win in this anyway.

125

?Please explain Evolution to me in simple terms

by Guest with Questions in

and please dont give me links to read.

i dont want a complicated version; just a very simple explanation on the theory of evolution, and if possible, in your own words.

many of us are very ignorant on this subject and it seems that a few here are very knowledgeable so i hope you can help me and others also.. also if you believe in the theory of common descent, could you explain that to me also?

RAF

What I'm saying about evolution is that you have to stay vague about the subject ... I'm not against, I'm not for ... but yet nobody can proove from what we evolved from ... but if you take the genetic as an argument you have to include the pig as a possibility (and who knows what about those possibilities, because you have to think about it to check it or you found out by hazard since we don't have to look alike to be very close genetically ... That's all what I'm saying !
The probleme in such debate is that people think that you are either on the right or theleft (if you don't believe in evolution you believe in creation account for instance, same for 9/11 its not about validating the whole conspiracie theorie it's about explaining what doesn't seem right in the explainations) ... again not for or against (that's being influenced) ... No I'm questioning ... (I can be on a side but it doesn't mean that I accepte everything from this side or deny everything to the other side) I just need it to be coherent (to me at least ... so of course this stays subjective).

125

?Please explain Evolution to me in simple terms

by Guest with Questions in

and please dont give me links to read.

i dont want a complicated version; just a very simple explanation on the theory of evolution, and if possible, in your own words.

many of us are very ignorant on this subject and it seems that a few here are very knowledgeable so i hope you can help me and others also.. also if you believe in the theory of common descent, could you explain that to me also?

RAF

LOL Warlok OINK OINK ...

since I'm a human (well I think) I don't care form what evolution (related or not to a God) I'm coming from

Also the queston of evolution vs creation stays pointless to me regarding the question of God. But theories becomes facts for lots of people (even when it's not proove for good yet).

125

?Please explain Evolution to me in simple terms

by Guest with Questions in

and please dont give me links to read.

i dont want a complicated version; just a very simple explanation on the theory of evolution, and if possible, in your own words.

many of us are very ignorant on this subject and it seems that a few here are very knowledgeable so i hope you can help me and others also.. also if you believe in the theory of common descent, could you explain that to me also?

RAF

RAF, from where did you learn that humans are genetically closer to pigs than to hominids? I've only ever heard that pig insulin can be made very identical to human insulin to treat diabetes, but I've never encountered any claim that the pig/swine is our closest relative. Please show me the evidence.
INQ
I've heard about it several times on scientific debates it but here is a link (in English) I kept from an other topic on here (thinking that it could help one day) this is the day : http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/Discover/discover37.cfm
the bigining : "Another mystery of life has been unraveled, one DNA strand at a time. University of Illinois animal geneticists Lawrence Schook and Jonathan Beever have created a side-by-side comparison of the human genome and the pig genome that reveals remarkable similarities. "We took the human genome, cut it into 173 puzzle pieces and rearranged it to make a pig," said Schook. "Everything matches up perfectly. The pig is genetically very close to humans."

125

?Please explain Evolution to me in simple terms

by Guest with Questions in

and please dont give me links to read.

i dont want a complicated version; just a very simple explanation on the theory of evolution, and if possible, in your own words.

many of us are very ignorant on this subject and it seems that a few here are very knowledgeable so i hope you can help me and others also.. also if you believe in the theory of common descent, could you explain that to me also?

RAF

Inquisitor
Firstly, if I say that "you and Marie share a common ancestor", is that the same as "you are a descendent of Marie"? No. Because in the first case, Marie could still be alive, but in the second case, she MUST BE DEAD.
The thing is that at the end it means the same thing same ancestor = same origine (which one ? you see what I mean or not ?) ... and 1 of my ancestors is still alive
Apes/Monkey (I'm french if you don't mind) ... Now check about the swin/pork genetically ... And you'll see what I mean.

125

?Please explain Evolution to me in simple terms

by Guest with Questions in

and please dont give me links to read.

i dont want a complicated version; just a very simple explanation on the theory of evolution, and if possible, in your own words.

many of us are very ignorant on this subject and it seems that a few here are very knowledgeable so i hope you can help me and others also.. also if you believe in the theory of common descent, could you explain that to me also?

RAF

Marisiuk

in fact no one claims we are descended from monkeys anyway,
it has been shown that monkeys, apes and humans share a common ancestor, monkeys, apes and humans all evolved FROM this ancestor, this is not because we vaguely look like a monkey (although some do) but because we are extremely close to monkeys and apes genetically speaking.
It means the same (weither your talking about ancestor which evoluate but you have to evolve from something NO) what is a common ancestor ... what is lucy to us for the Evolutionarist ?and what comes lucy from ?
Yeah what about the swin ? (genetically speaking)

You guys really PFFFFFFFFFFFF !!! (without the details it was ok but with such details and mixe you're lost)
But again why arguing ?