Posts by IsaacJS2

8

DFing because of doubts

by IsaacJS2 in

i was looking in the insight book under dfing (it refers you to expelling instead) and found the following list of reasons for dfing:.

some of the offenses that could merit disfellowshipping from the christian congregation are fornication, adultery, homosexuality, greed, extortion, thievery, lying, drunkenness, reviling, spiritism, murder, idolatry, apostasy, and the causing of divisions in the congregation.. it sounds like doubt in god and/or the wt would all be grounds, but where do they fit under the list?

would they label this as idolatry or apostasy, maybe?

IsaacJS2

I was wondering what the particulars of this were. I suspect there is something specific they look for, something that is officially "crossing the line" before forming a JC but I wasn't sure where the line would be drawn. I briefly admitted that I was an atheist to an in-law a while back but never heard much more about it--other than the fact that I was now a bad associate to her, despite the promise she wouldn't hold the conversation against me. (Yeah, sure...)

In another post, I had asked about people who fade and why they prefer that method to just quitting outright. I was sort of fading (though not deliberately) when I just stopped altogether. Wasn't subtle enough. A week later I was getting 20+ phone calls a day and stopped in the grocery store and pelted with questions. But after a month or so, the surreal love-bombing eased off almost completely. It took about 2 years for things to settle down completely, but those occasional annoyances were worthwhile since I had no direct Witness family. (Just in-laws) I was glad it was over with--I could not have done what many of you have had to do and are doing even now. I can't imagine slipping away over a period of years.

One reason I was asking is because I was thinking about writing some articles regarding the WT and its former members. I was thinking I might start with something about fading and what people with Witness families have to go through just to get away.

IsaacJ

8

DFing because of doubts

by IsaacJS2 in

i was looking in the insight book under dfing (it refers you to expelling instead) and found the following list of reasons for dfing:.

some of the offenses that could merit disfellowshipping from the christian congregation are fornication, adultery, homosexuality, greed, extortion, thievery, lying, drunkenness, reviling, spiritism, murder, idolatry, apostasy, and the causing of divisions in the congregation.. it sounds like doubt in god and/or the wt would all be grounds, but where do they fit under the list?

would they label this as idolatry or apostasy, maybe?

IsaacJS2

***

it-1p.127Apostasy***

An apostasy among professed Christians was foretold by the apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 2:3. He specifically mentioned certain apostates, such as Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus. (1Ti 1:19, 20; 2Ti 2:16-19) Among the varied causes of apostasy set forth in apostolic warnings were: lack of faith (Heb 3:12), lack of endurance in the face of persecution (Heb 10:32-39), abandonment of right moral standards (2Pe 2:15-22), the heeding of the "counterfeit words" of false teachers and "misleading inspired utterances" (2Pe 2:1-3; 1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 2:16-19; compare Pr 11:9), and trying "to be declared righteous by means of law" (Ga 5:2-4). While still making profession of faith in God’s Word, apostates may forsake his service by treating lightly the preaching and teaching work that he assigned to followers of Jesus Christ. (Lu 6:46; Mt 24:14; 28:19, 20) They may also claim to serve God but reject his representatives, his visible organization, and then turn to ‘beating’ their former associates to hinder their work. (Jude 8, 11; Nu 16:19-21; Mt 24:45-51) Apostates often seek to make others their followers. (Ac 20:30; 2Pe 2:1, 3) Such ones willfully abandoning the Christian congregation thereby become part of the "antichrist." (1Jo 2:18, 19) As with the apostate Israelites, destruction is likewise foretold for apostates from the Christian congregation.—2Pe 2:1; Heb 6:4-8;

Think I found it. Idolatry might apply, but I guess "lack of faith" above qualifies. My bad.

IsaacJ

8

DFing because of doubts

by IsaacJS2 in

i was looking in the insight book under dfing (it refers you to expelling instead) and found the following list of reasons for dfing:.

some of the offenses that could merit disfellowshipping from the christian congregation are fornication, adultery, homosexuality, greed, extortion, thievery, lying, drunkenness, reviling, spiritism, murder, idolatry, apostasy, and the causing of divisions in the congregation.. it sounds like doubt in god and/or the wt would all be grounds, but where do they fit under the list?

would they label this as idolatry or apostasy, maybe?

IsaacJS2

I was looking in the Insight book under DFing (it refers you to expelling instead) and found the following list of reasons for DFing:

Some of the offenses that could merit disfellowshipping from the Christian congregation are fornication, adultery, homosexuality, greed, extortion, thievery, lying, drunkenness, reviling, spiritism, murder, idolatry, apostasy, and the causing of divisions in the congregation.

It sounds like doubt in God and/or the WT would all be grounds, but where do they fit under the list? Would they label this as idolatry or apostasy, maybe? The entry for idolatry suggests that replacing God (and I suppose the WT) with something else can be considered idolatry. So I guess replacing God with secularism, atheism, or "worldliness" might fit under this heading. Or is there a direct quote somewhere that I can't find? (I've been checking in the CD-ROM, but not much luck so far)

It's odd, but I can't find a lot regarding secularism/atheism in the references aside from blurbs and personal experiences.

Thanks for any help, especially if you've gone through any of this before.

IsaacJ

12

Watchtower & Awake mags need leaked to the net

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

just wondering if anybody out there still get the mags and is able to leak them to the internet.

just the other day i realized that i haven't looked at a new watchtower or awake in months.

i think it's pretty funny that on this board elders letters and things from hq get leaked, but the literature doesn't seem to make its way around.

IsaacJS2

This is definitely CR infringement. Make no mistake about it. But it is also the sort of thing that happens quite often.

I can think of several ways this could still happen. One would be to post them in a part of the forum that was private and accessible only to members. Perhaps those with a hundred or more posts? Or maybe after they have made 20 posts, AND they've been members for a couple months? This would make it hard for anyone to get them that you don't want to find out about it.

Another would be to put them in PDFs or CBZ/CBR files (these are really just zipped and rarred collections of jpegs...they tend to be smaller, so many people prefer them who swap comic books online and such ) and upload the files to one of those sites that allows you to upload a set amount of material for free so others can get it. 100 MBs is the usual limit, and the files only stay up for a limited time before automatic deletion. I have not used them, however, and most are designed to be used by a few individuals with a set email address. You're supposed to include an email address for your intended recipient, and they receive the instructions on how to get the files. I don't know if such a system can be adapted to work within a forum, but it might be possible to post the download instructions here in the forum for everyone to use for the time limit. If the post could be deleted, or kept private, then it would be very difficult for anyone to find any proof that it is being done.

www.dropload.com is one example of a site that keeps files for up to 7 days. There used to be a number of these on the web, and they were all free. Dropload is only one.

Just a thought.

IsaacJ

4

Did Jesus die in behalf of Satan?

by Aaac in

did jesus die also in behalf of his brother satan and all the fallen angels?

someone said, this has been a jw teaching a long ago.

IsaacJS2

I have some family that are "Mormon Wannabes." They tell me that this idea of Satan and Jesus being brothers is a Mormon belief. (Perhaps someone can confirm this?) I don't remember anything either way about Jesus dying for Satan's sins, though.

IsaacJ

10

When does the calling of Christians to a heavenly hope cease?

by whereami in

well here it is folks!!!

the wts new "light" on the subject.

read it & weep.

IsaacJS2

I was always told that we were to obey the anointed Christians. So that is not the case? Has this changed?

In my old congregation, there was an anointed sister some time before I joined the fray. They said she was a HUGE pain in the neck. She would tell the Elders what to do and embarass them in front of the congregation at meetings! (Heh heh) But no one could touch her. I *thought* she was even present when the Elders would have their regular meetings, but that could be my mistake.

Just wondering.

IsaacJ

15

Question for faders (past and present)

by IsaacJS2 in

jw
friends

i was just wondering why people fade instead of just quitting right away.

going inactive isn't enough to get dfed, is it?

i was never dfed, though my meeting attendance had been on again off again for months before hand.

IsaacJS2

This must be one of those things that varies by congregation. For some of you at least, you could actually be DFed just for becoming inactive? I dropped out and had to deal with the love bombing, but looking back, I considered it worth doing. Like having a tooth pulled versus enduring the pain for a long time kind of a thing. I didn't think there was much difference as far as family/friends are concerned whether you faded or not. They know you are falling off, even if the Elders don't notice. My in-laws still speak to me, for instance, though I don't exactly hang out with any of them these days. No one here treats me as especially evil, though they do take advantage and try to fill out their service time on occasion at my expense. That surely wouldn't have changed if I had faded.

But some of you are actually saying that the Elders would put you in front of a JC if you just up and went inactive?

NOTE: I'm not questioning the validity of what faders are doing, I only wish to make sure I understand what is going on with them. Some seem to feel it will be less jarring to their families, and even then it can take years to accomplish. I'm having some trouble getting my head completely around that, which is one of the reasons I ask. Others say they will actually be DFed and declared apostates. Sounds like your congregations are very different from mine, and mine was considered THE WORST in our whole area! Maybe it isn't as conservative as I had thought.

IsaacJ

11

The "perfect human" being ...

by Frequent_Fader_Miles in

according to the jw belief, what definition/explanation were you given for the concept of "human perfection"?

what exactly would make a "perfect human" ... well... perfect?.

i remember once when i was a child, my mom told me that when i decided on my adult profession, i should make sure it's one i would be able to use in the "new system".

IsaacJS2

I was told that perfection, in this case, more or less meant "we shall be as Jehovah meant for us to be, instead of all icky and bad like we are now." The suggestion was also made that we would be improved physically/mentally and made young again in the process. Philosophically, when a thing adheres perfectly to its intended design, that is one of several valid definitions of perfection. We are supposedly defective in that we are not as Jehovah/Jesus made us to be.

It's supposedly as hard for a perfect person to do naughty things as it is for us to right things now. Which is more than a bit skewed, in my opinion. But oh well. That's what I was taught.

IsaacJ

15

Question for faders (past and present)

by IsaacJS2 in

jw
friends

i was just wondering why people fade instead of just quitting right away.

going inactive isn't enough to get dfed, is it?

i was never dfed, though my meeting attendance had been on again off again for months before hand.

IsaacJS2

I was just wondering why people fade instead of just quitting right away. Going inactive isn't enough to get DFed, is it? I was never DFed, though my meeting attendance had been on again off again for months before hand. I still got love bombed to death right afterward, but I wasn't DFed or anything.

Is it just in the hope that people won't notice the abrupt change and won't give you any grief (like marking you as evil) especially family and friends?

I was also wondering how long you guys took (or are taking) to fade?

Thanks for any info.

IsaacJ

22

Does the GB believe the doctrine themselves?

by GBSJG in

after reading crisis of conscience i got the impression that most on the gb actually believe all the doctrine themselves or at least that they believe that they are doing there best and god is helping/blessing them.. this sometimes seems unbelievable to me considering that they know about all the bad things in the org and see so many problems that the rank file normally does not notice or know about.

i'm currently reading combatting cult mind control by steve hassan.

when reading that book i can see that there are some cults that are far worse then the jws.

IsaacJS2

I think it's possible that they mean well, but I have serious doubts. I think it's likely that some of them more or less meant well, but ended up making too many compromises once they got near the top and are now corrupt. I also think that at least some of them pretty much figured out what was going on from the beginning. But the extent of it all is definitely something I wonder about.

This is a very well oiled machine for no one to know what's going on. Playing on this much psychology--which is a strange and subtle thing--takes skill and forethought. It is unlikely that they just sorta stumbled upon it by accident, especially given the level of paranoia they exhibit and how many years they'd kept things running this way.

IsaacJ