Posts by neverendingjourney

14

This article should be required reading for all JWs who graduate from high school

by neverendingjourney in

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.html.

the gist of the article is that trade schools are becoming increasingly poplular in our down economy, and that many of them deceptively market themselves, to put it nicely.

far too many students graduate from these outfits with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and zero job prospects.. when i was 19 years old, i decided to take the "spiritual" and "theocratic" route by foregoing a college education in favor of a quick trade school program.

neverendingjourney

How does everyone feel about trade schools for journeyman programs... welder, plumber, electrical, etc? You don't go to college, you start work immediately as an apprentice and then go to school for roughly 6-8 weeks per year.

What you're describing sounds a lot to me like apprenticeship programs organized by labor unions. These programs are preferable, in my opinion, to for-profit trade schools because they train an apprentice while he learns on the job. Blue-collar professions tend to lend themselves to on-the-job learning as opposed to white-collar jobs like engineering, medicine, etc.

14

This article should be required reading for all JWs who graduate from high school

by neverendingjourney in

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.html.

the gist of the article is that trade schools are becoming increasingly poplular in our down economy, and that many of them deceptively market themselves, to put it nicely.

far too many students graduate from these outfits with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and zero job prospects.. when i was 19 years old, i decided to take the "spiritual" and "theocratic" route by foregoing a college education in favor of a quick trade school program.

neverendingjourney

Blondie,

It's interesting that you bring up welding, since i have some personal experience in the construction field. There was a trade school not too far from where I grew up that trained welders. It claimed to provide its students with the skills necessary to obtain a high-paying welding job. Someone I know quite well enrolled in the program and borrowed several thousand dollars for tuition. Six months later he was handed a welding certificate but couldn't pass the welding skill tests required by employers to certify competence in the field. The school basically ripped him off. The school later closed down and there's now an empty lot where it once stood.

The point I was making wasn't whether some blue-collar jobs pay better than white-collar jobs. The point I was making is that trade schools often take students' money and leave them with nothing but a worthless piece of paper.

14

This article should be required reading for all JWs who graduate from high school

by neverendingjourney in

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.html.

the gist of the article is that trade schools are becoming increasingly poplular in our down economy, and that many of them deceptively market themselves, to put it nicely.

far too many students graduate from these outfits with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and zero job prospects.. when i was 19 years old, i decided to take the "spiritual" and "theocratic" route by foregoing a college education in favor of a quick trade school program.

neverendingjourney

Jeff,

I hear what you're saying. In the right situation, a trade school certificate might be a good investment. For instance, I've known of people with bachelor degrees who obtained paralegal certificates back when there was a demand for that kind of work. These folks were able to obtain employment with large law firms who wouldn't hire paralegals without college degrees. However, for every one of them there were 10 others without college degrees who went through the expense of obtaining the certifcate and were unemployable. Law firms didn't want to hire people who were working at McDonalds six months before. That's just the way it was, and this was back when the economy was really doing well.

My brother had a similar experience. Because of health issues, he was forced to find office work. He went to an IT trade school to obtain a certificae in networking or some such computer-related field. He spent about a year there and was unable to obtain the professional certifications that he was led to believe he would be able to procure. It turns out this outfit was very careful with their language in the way the Society was careful in the run up to 1975. Fortunately for my brother, he was able to draw upon his vast JW network and found entry-level employment that paid farely well and with time he was able to get enough work experience under his belt to make a career out of it. He was lucky, and he probably could have gotten the entry-level job without the certificate.

What bothers me most is that there is no discussion about the dangers/risks associated with these trades schools. Young JWs are not given the proper facts so as to be in a position to carefully evaluate whether trade school is right for them. Instead, the Society talks up young people who forego college, enroll in brief trade school programs and join the ranks of pioneers. This is the model that's presented to JW youth. It seems like every assembly I went to when I was young had a part with experiences highlighting young people who chose to go to trade school and pioneer instead of going to college.

JWs don't typically discuss trade school horror stories because that kind of thing can get you flagged as being "untheocratic." It's reminiscent of the WTs involvement in medical decisions. They impose themselves on as authorities on a given subject, selectively cherry-pick the evidence they present, and obfuscate the dangers associated with following their recommended path.

93

Dinosaurs

by roadrunner4speed in

jw
friends

does anyone realize that dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible?

god told us he created all the beast of the field didn't need to.

mention dinosaurs seperatly.

neverendingjourney

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/190293/2/Dinosaurs#3545699 Jesus Horse

14

This article should be required reading for all JWs who graduate from high school

by neverendingjourney in

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.html.

the gist of the article is that trade schools are becoming increasingly poplular in our down economy, and that many of them deceptively market themselves, to put it nicely.

far too many students graduate from these outfits with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and zero job prospects.. when i was 19 years old, i decided to take the "spiritual" and "theocratic" route by foregoing a college education in favor of a quick trade school program.

neverendingjourney

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.html

The gist of the article is that trade schools are becoming increasingly poplular in our down economy, and that many of them deceptively market themselves, to put it nicely. Far too many students graduate from these outfits with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and zero job prospects.

When I was 19 years old, I decided to take the "spiritual" and "theocratic" route by foregoing a college education in favor of a quick trade school program. The Society was really pushing 1 to 2 years programs at the time. The CO was delighted by my decision and I received kudos from many prominent elders in my circuit.

The only problem was that I couldn't find a job after I got out and found myself saddled with $10,000 of debt (this was back in the late 90s). It wasn't an altogether negative experience. It provided one more piece of evidence that the Society was not what it claimed to be and it led me to enroll in community college. Ten years later, I now have undergraduate and post-graduate professional degrees under my belt and a nice career.

The WT doesn't warn members of the risks outlined in the article linked to above. They simply push kids into trade schools (not college!). I was a young, naive follower at the time and lacked the life experience necessary to properly evaluate this decision. I honestly had no idea of the risks involved in pursuing the trade school path. If any JWs were aware of the risks, they never alerted me, maybe because they feared being viewed as spiritually weak for criticizing a WT recommendation.

52

Faders are indeed a large army...

by undercover in

jw
friends

...and i think it's starting to show.. i started a thread the other day about being hounded after several years of having successfully(?

) faded.

i've been taken aback a bit the recent developments but i'm making a new strategy...one that depends more on sticking to my guns and laying the cards on the table.

neverendingjourney

I think the WTS is at, or coming to, a crossroads. They're gonna have to become more mainstream in order to recruit - and keep - regular ole folks. Or - they're gonna have to circule the wagons, withdraw into itself and plan on having a small core group of believers. All indications are that it will have to be the latter because they show no signs of easing up on their wackier beliefs or policies.

I've been saying this for a long time. Some of my earliest posts on this board express this very sentiment. The current framework is unsustainable because the promise of a reward is no longer palpable to your average witness, at least not palpable enough to justify the sacrifices that a JW must undergo in order to obtain it. A lot of sticks but no carrots.

So which direction do the JWs go in: large and mainstream or small and traditional? Ray Franz, perhaps unintentionally, sheds some light on this in Crisis of Conscience. He said that, above all, the GB is concerned with two things: (1) mainatining traditional positions on issues and (2) numbers. However, these two priorities will soon be--maybe already are--at odds when the numbers begin to take a nose dive due to the fact that traditional positions no longer provide enough incentive to zealously remain in the religion.

So which priority will the GB pursue: numbers or tradition? You're guess is as good as mine.

18

Will the FDS start demanding a "pledge"?

by hamsterbait in

jw
friends

remember how the bible students had to make a pledge, among other things "never to be alone in a room with a member of the opposite sex, except a sister, mother or daughter?".

do you think they will start to demand a "pledge of alliegance" to the borganisation?.

will those refusing to make it then be summaraily df, since they have shown by their refusal, that they do not believe that the gibbering buddy, is the appointed "fds" of matthew 25.. how likely is this do you think?.

neverendingjourney

Accoriding to Ray Franz's Crisis of Conscience, this subject came up in a post-purge Bethel elder meeting sometime around 1980. The GB met with Bethel elders to inform them that any deviations from GB teachings would be viewed as apostasy and would not be tolerated. A Bethel elder raised his hand and asked whether the Society had considered requiring loyalthy oaths, to which a GB memeber (I think it was Schroeder) responded that such idea was not being considered at that time.

There really is nothing to be gained by requiring such an oath. Baptism puts you on the hook to the organization for so long as you live. Anything else would be redundant. They have all they need to screw you when you agree to take the dunk in the pool.

71

Do "Thousands of JWs die each year" because they refuse blood? I say YES!

by AndersonsInfo in

http://www.freeminds.org/blogs/musings-of-a-watchtower-insider/thousands-die-each-year.htm l. this blog article is solely my personal opinion, but i have tried to present important material for your consideration because i believe that one life lost to this blood-ban is one too many and there have too many deaths since 1945 and it's time something is done about it.

however you think on the subject, just wait until you read the conclusion of my blog article.

oh, by the way, all points of view are important to me and most welcome so i look forward to reading them here on jwn .

neverendingjourney

Years ago a co-worker got onto me about the blood policy, and I started in with my rehearsed defense mentioning the advances in medical technology that made bloodless surgery widely available, etc. He stopped me mid-sentence and asked a question I hadn't spent any time considering: "But what about all the Witnesses who live outside the US? They don't have access to the advanced technologies and bloodless medical centers you're describing."

He was right. Some 80% of JWs live outside the US and it's probably fair to say that over half live in poor nations. All the tripe they print about advanced technologies are out of reach for your run of the mill JW.

34

Threat of 1980 Rebellion/Schism--Real or Perceived?

by neverendingjourney in

jw
friends

the way crisis of conscience lays it out, despite their reservations on doctrine, ray franz and ed dunlap would have been more than happy to live out their lives within the jw ranks without causing any disturbance.

ray was contemplating resigning from the gb and living out his life quietly somewhere outside bethel.

ed preferred to remain in bethel due to his advanced age.

neverendingjourney

Well, it's been a really long day at work and I'm just getting home. There have been a lot of excellent points raised on this thread, and I'll try to address as many of them as possible.

They really do think God is running the organization. As such, trying to explain things in a rational way is not productive, IMHO.

I think that's true when it comes to doctrinal matters, but they've certainly acted rationally when their self-preservation was at stake such as in the change in their pedophile policy post Catholic Church scandal and their allowance of blood fractions in response to pressure from European govts.

There were groups that were leaving the JW's and organizing. My old congregation of Carnarsie, Brooklyn, had over 60 DF'd for apostasy.

However in my congregation we were experiencing a 'Berean' period around that time. I went from 3 Saturdays a month concentrating on being good organizationally to be concerned about not being followers of men, discerning the context and taking in accurate knowledge so that when the end did come we were not led astray.

There were several others at Bethel questioning things, and many in the congregations. But most of this was due to the failure of 1975. The hard liners of the GB were convinced the sky was falling,

This is kind of what I'm getting at. It seems to me that the threat the GB perceived went far beyond Ray and Ed's penchant for independent thinking. Their actions were those of men who perceived a palpable threat to their authority. CoC doesn't really delve into it, but it seems to me that there was far too much independent thought throughout the organization as far as the Society was concerned, and Ray, Ed, and the rest of the purged Bethelites were simply made examples of in order to put fear into the hearts of those who dared challenge official policy.

Try these links:

Thanks, Randy. I'll read them when I get a chance.

My own personal opinion is that Ray's primary motivation in writing CoC was to tell his side of the story. His reputation was sullied as pernicious rumors about him were allowed to circulate throughout the JW ranks. If his primary interest was pecuniary, he could have very easily made sensational claims that would have gotten the attention of those outside the XJW community, but he didn't. In fact, he mentions in his book that a former high-ranking memeber of the Society had been admonished for homesexual propensities (edward chitty?), but he declines to go into details. His book has all the marks of a honest-hearted attempt to write a memoir of his experiences within the JW religion.

That being said, he, like anyone of us, is incapable of being truly impartial. Regardless of how hard we may try to avoid it, bias seeps into our memories and the way in which we perceive ourselves and the events around us. That's why we cannot have a complete picture of what went on without hearing accounts from some of the others involved. I would love to read Albert Schroeder's memoir or the recollections of Lyman Swingle or Fred Franz, but of course, that was never going to happen. We should be thankful for Ray's memoir, but we shouldn't fall into the trap of viewing it as gospel.

34

Threat of 1980 Rebellion/Schism--Real or Perceived?

by neverendingjourney in

jw
friends

the way crisis of conscience lays it out, despite their reservations on doctrine, ray franz and ed dunlap would have been more than happy to live out their lives within the jw ranks without causing any disturbance.

ray was contemplating resigning from the gb and living out his life quietly somewhere outside bethel.

ed preferred to remain in bethel due to his advanced age.

neverendingjourney

You're assuming that the WT leaders were rational people... What are you basing this on?

I don't assume WT leaders are rational. One potential answer is simply this: the men on the GB are completely irrational and acted accordingly.

Why did Nixon have his goons break into the Watergate Hotel when his reelection bid was never seriously challenged? Because he was paranoid and irrational. Why did McCarthy initiate a witch hunt against "communist sympathizers"? Because he was irrational, power-hungry, and an attention whore.

Another possible answer, however, is that the GB began to sense their grip of power slipping away and decided to bring the hammer down. Private conversations revealing doubts about official JW doctrine don't seem to justify such a response.

My interest is in trying to figure out whether there is more information out there from other sources that substantiate the latter explanation or whether the former is all there is to it.