An elder at my old hall confidently declared from the platform that ALL forms of dance involving unmarried persons were prohibited.
He was disfellowshipped about a month later...he had secretly been having an affair.
neverendingjourney
JoinedPosts by neverendingjourney
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25
Was Watchtower Elder Correct To Say This Dance Style was Unchristian?.
by Scott77 inafter watching this traditional / cultural dance below, do you think the elder was right to brand it as unchristian?
if yes, then is there such thing as a 'christian dance'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90xrdyruyn8&feature=player_embedded.
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34
Do We Give WTS Too Much Credit? Are They Maybe Just Dummies?
by OnTheWayOut ini know many just want to shout yes to that second question, but hold on a second.. i go back and forth wondering if there is evil intent to manipulate and lie to the "flock" through the pages of watchtower and from the platform at conventions or if they really believe most of their own nonsense.. i won't load my post with endless examples (but feel free to use them) of this.
i will post just two to make my thoughts.
sometimes, i read comments about their long-term planning to get more money or lose less money and gain more members or retain more of the captives.
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neverendingjourney
One more thing:
It's also important to note what Ray Franz says is one of the two primary motivating factors behind GB decision making: The desire to uphold traditional policies.
If the traditional JW policy is to encourage JWs to donate their estates, the GB is likely to vote to continue that policy. If the traditional policy is to discourage education, that policy will be continued. This is especially true because a 2/3 votes is required to change a traditional policy. At least that was the case in 1980 when Ray last sat on the GB.
This motivation can lead to contradictory policies being issued. See, Malawi vs. Mexico.
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Do We Give WTS Too Much Credit? Are They Maybe Just Dummies?
by OnTheWayOut ini know many just want to shout yes to that second question, but hold on a second.. i go back and forth wondering if there is evil intent to manipulate and lie to the "flock" through the pages of watchtower and from the platform at conventions or if they really believe most of their own nonsense.. i won't load my post with endless examples (but feel free to use them) of this.
i will post just two to make my thoughts.
sometimes, i read comments about their long-term planning to get more money or lose less money and gain more members or retain more of the captives.
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neverendingjourney
I think it's important to point out that the two views (evil geniuses vs. braindead believers) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
It's quite possible that there are competing camps on the GB and the ultimate policy that gets made depends on what the GB "centrists" end up deciding, whoever those "centrists" may be.
Think about it in terms of what happens at the US Supreme Court. If you try to analyze their opinions, it often seems as if the institution is bipolar. One year it'll rule one way, the next year another way. Of course, we have the benefit of finding out how the vote went down and reading the judge's opinions. We can determine who the liberals, conservatives and centrists are. You don't get a consistent, harmonious pattern of decisions from the court because it's governed by committee (9 justices) and the ultimate deciders are the swing votes.
I'll give you an example: In 1986 the US Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of state laws against sodomy. In 2003, less than 20 years later, the Court struck down such laws finding sexual behavior to be protected under the constitution. What changed? The composition of the Court and social norms.
If you view JW leadership as a singular, harmonious unit, then one can easily become perplexed at the seemingly contradictory policies that are handed down. However, if you view leadership as an often-fragmented committee like the Supreme Court, then it becomes easier to understand why there are conflicting messages being sent. Sometimes JW leadership sends messages reflecting a long-term manipulative view, such as trying to get JWs to donate their estates and their continual real estate expansion. Sometimes they reflect a naive view of the world with imminent destruction in mind, such as when they discourage education and childbearing.
It all depends on which faction wins out on the GB, but of course, that's all invisible to us.
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First Time that I Didn't Go to the Memorial - Now Depressed
by daniel-p inso this was the very first time in my whole life that i didn't go to the memorial.
my wife went, and she was sullen before and after... i know she wanted me to go.
i told her afterwards that if she wants me to go next year i would, but she didn't say anything.
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neverendingjourney
I'm not married, so I can't speak to that part of it, but after I left JWism, I experienced feelings of guilt/depression every time I broke a new taboo. I think part of it was sheer instinct.
It's been a few years since I've stepped inside a Kingdom Hall and I still get these feelings from time to time. Two weeks ago I brought home a woman and felt real guilty the next day. It was the ol' JW instincts kicking in, I guess.
Hang in there, man. Your wife is probably worried about you due to her JW progamming. Just keep in mind that the programming serves to keep people like you in the fold, so to speak.
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"large but mainstream" brings what changes next?
by agent zero inin some other threads there has been talk of wether the organization will go large and mainstream or small and hard-core in the upcoming years.. in the past few years, the sunday public talk has been shortened, the bookstudy eliminated (at least as a seperate meeting night), #2 talks are down to a simple read-through, and a little longer ago pioneering hour requirements have been shortened.
personally i would take these as signs of them going more soft and keeping a larger membership.. if this is indeed the case, what would you suspect of being cut off or changed next?.
a0.
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neverendingjourney
Dropping the blood ban or dropping shunning would be the sure-fire signs that they've decided to pursue a mainstream path. You can argue they've taken steps in that direction already by making "fractions" a conscience matter, but those two things, above all else, prevent them from every being seen as truly mainstream.
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Door to Door Message? A DIVERSION! Where does the MONEY go??
by Terry inthe door to door work is a sham.. the central activity of the watchtower bible and tract society is not spreading their so-called "message" about the kingdom of jehovah established in the heavens in 1914.. that's a load of propaganda.. the door to door activity is feckless in producing converts.
in fact, it is an immense failure of mammoth proportions!.
but, it is a diversion.
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neverendingjourney
Mainstream religion has to do something PUBLICLY with the money they raise like pay for air-time, pay for orphanages in Africa, pay for a new transmitter, pay for a new steeple or glass cathedral or theme park
Mainstream religions also typically encourage members to tithe, whereas JW don't. Your post assumes JWs bring in revenues comparable to "mainstream religions", but do they? Neither you nor I know the answer to that question since the WT books aren't open to public inspection, but I suspect WT revenues per capita are significantly lower than other religions because (1) their members are poorer on average than those of mainstream Christiandom and (2) JWs are not required to tithe.
Hell, on a good month I dropped $20 in the contribution box. I used to be the assistant account servant at my old Hall, and we would average well short of $1000 in contributions a month, this in a congregation that had over 100 publishers. Typically, we would recieve anywhere between $100 and $300 a month for the WT Worldwide Work fund.
You'd have a much stronger argument if the WT still charged for the literature as it did back in the 80s. Every JW I spoke with who was involved in the accounts at that time told me that there was a significant drop off in donations after the voluntary donation arrangement went into effect.
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This article should be required reading for all JWs who graduate from high school
by neverendingjourney inhttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.html.
the gist of the article is that trade schools are becoming increasingly poplular in our down economy, and that many of them deceptively market themselves, to put it nicely.
far too many students graduate from these outfits with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and zero job prospects.. when i was 19 years old, i decided to take the "spiritual" and "theocratic" route by foregoing a college education in favor of a quick trade school program.
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neverendingjourney
How does everyone feel about trade schools for journeyman programs... welder, plumber, electrical, etc? You don't go to college, you start work immediately as an apprentice and then go to school for roughly 6-8 weeks per year.
What you're describing sounds a lot to me like apprenticeship programs organized by labor unions. These programs are preferable, in my opinion, to for-profit trade schools because they train an apprentice while he learns on the job. Blue-collar professions tend to lend themselves to on-the-job learning as opposed to white-collar jobs like engineering, medicine, etc.
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This article should be required reading for all JWs who graduate from high school
by neverendingjourney inhttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.html.
the gist of the article is that trade schools are becoming increasingly poplular in our down economy, and that many of them deceptively market themselves, to put it nicely.
far too many students graduate from these outfits with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and zero job prospects.. when i was 19 years old, i decided to take the "spiritual" and "theocratic" route by foregoing a college education in favor of a quick trade school program.
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neverendingjourney
Blondie,
It's interesting that you bring up welding, since i have some personal experience in the construction field. There was a trade school not too far from where I grew up that trained welders. It claimed to provide its students with the skills necessary to obtain a high-paying welding job. Someone I know quite well enrolled in the program and borrowed several thousand dollars for tuition. Six months later he was handed a welding certificate but couldn't pass the welding skill tests required by employers to certify competence in the field. The school basically ripped him off. The school later closed down and there's now an empty lot where it once stood.
The point I was making wasn't whether some blue-collar jobs pay better than white-collar jobs. The point I was making is that trade schools often take students' money and leave them with nothing but a worthless piece of paper.
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This article should be required reading for all JWs who graduate from high school
by neverendingjourney inhttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.html.
the gist of the article is that trade schools are becoming increasingly poplular in our down economy, and that many of them deceptively market themselves, to put it nicely.
far too many students graduate from these outfits with tens of thousands of dollars of debt and zero job prospects.. when i was 19 years old, i decided to take the "spiritual" and "theocratic" route by foregoing a college education in favor of a quick trade school program.
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neverendingjourney
Jeff,
I hear what you're saying. In the right situation, a trade school certificate might be a good investment. For instance, I've known of people with bachelor degrees who obtained paralegal certificates back when there was a demand for that kind of work. These folks were able to obtain employment with large law firms who wouldn't hire paralegals without college degrees. However, for every one of them there were 10 others without college degrees who went through the expense of obtaining the certifcate and were unemployable. Law firms didn't want to hire people who were working at McDonalds six months before. That's just the way it was, and this was back when the economy was really doing well.
My brother had a similar experience. Because of health issues, he was forced to find office work. He went to an IT trade school to obtain a certificae in networking or some such computer-related field. He spent about a year there and was unable to obtain the professional certifications that he was led to believe he would be able to procure. It turns out this outfit was very careful with their language in the way the Society was careful in the run up to 1975. Fortunately for my brother, he was able to draw upon his vast JW network and found entry-level employment that paid farely well and with time he was able to get enough work experience under his belt to make a career out of it. He was lucky, and he probably could have gotten the entry-level job without the certificate.
What bothers me most is that there is no discussion about the dangers/risks associated with these trades schools. Young JWs are not given the proper facts so as to be in a position to carefully evaluate whether trade school is right for them. Instead, the Society talks up young people who forego college, enroll in brief trade school programs and join the ranks of pioneers. This is the model that's presented to JW youth. It seems like every assembly I went to when I was young had a part with experiences highlighting young people who chose to go to trade school and pioneer instead of going to college.
JWs don't typically discuss trade school horror stories because that kind of thing can get you flagged as being "untheocratic." It's reminiscent of the WTs involvement in medical decisions. They impose themselves on as authorities on a given subject, selectively cherry-pick the evidence they present, and obfuscate the dangers associated with following their recommended path.
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Dinosaurs
by roadrunner4speed indoes anyone realize that dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible?
god told us he created all the beast of the field didn't need to.
mention dinosaurs seperatly.
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