neverendingjourney

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Posts by neverendingjourney

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  7

  To Current Elders or Former Elders I have a question ?

  by Pitchess Co-Gen in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  in the new elder's manuel they said that if you molested someone or been molested than you can't be an elder or a ministerial sevant even if it was before bastism .

  i find that to be wrong because i thought when you got basptised than all your sins are forgivin, but thats the case here i guess..

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  neverendingjourney

  I find that to be wrong because I thought when you got basptised than all your sins are forgivin, but thats the case here I guess.

  It's a long story, but this line of questioning served to open my eyes. From a purely Biblical perspective, I think you're right. Nowhere in the Bible does it say men who have abused children (or who are "known" child abusers) are to be prevented from holding positions of responsibility in the congregation. The Bible DOES say that we are washed from our sins. So, from a Biblical perspective, there should be no reason why such a sin should disqualify a man from serving as MS, or elder. When the WT changed their official policy, it made me realize they were responding to political/legal pressure. They were afraid they were going to get hit with a series of lawsuits similar to the Catholic Church and decided to adjust their doctrine accordingly.

  If the WT was God's handpicked religion on Earth, why would it cave to human pressure and legal concerns? It seemed unbecoming of a God's people. Of course, from a practical, non-indoctrinated perspective, it makes complete sense to protect children from people who have demonstrated a perverted tendency to take advantage of them. But common sense didn't matter to me when I was a JW; what the Bible said was ALL that mattered. Jehovah wiping out children in the flood made no sense to me, but it must have been just because that's what God wanted. If God didn't tell us that child molesters were to be permanently banned from serving in the congregations, then men had no place imposing their judgment for the will of God.

  That was my thinking at the time. I'm glad I no longer hold those views. Once the indoctrination wore off, I could see the many, many flaws in the organization.
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  96

  Challenges Facing the Watchtower Org

  by eric356 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ive been thinking about the future of the watchtower organization and the challenges it faces in coming decades.

  its difficult to address the issue without allowing personal feelings affect the analysis.

  many people seem to think that the society will collapse fairly soon, based mostly on the fact that the person dislikes the leadership or cant understand how others can believe the doctrine.

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  neverendingjourney

  If the GB is truly still in expectation of Jehovah's lifeboat, why the building plans extending to at least 2014?

  This is what I was getting at when I was talking about mixed signals coming from WT leadership. Maybe there are 2 or 3 delusional GB members who would stop long-term planning, another 2 or 3 who feel we're in it for the long term and another 2 or 3 who aren't quite sure. On any given matter, the long-term faction might convince the undecideds to go their way, and on another occasion the end-is-near faction wins their support. The bottom line is that we don't know for sure, but policy-decisions have definitely been inconsistent.

  We can point to long-term expansion projects and say, "See, the GB is full of money-hungry, evil-geniuses, cynically manipulating JW membership for their own benefit. They don't believe a word of what they're saying." But, if this is true, why does the WT continue to discourage higher education? Why does it encourage its members to work in low-paying jobs? Why doesn't the WT require tithing?

  Before somone says it's because they need to have an uneducated membership in order to preserve their power, look at the Mormon Church. Their members are on average more educated than the general US population and they run their own universities. Education has not caused a decline in membership, and it can be argued that their beliefs are more easily disproved that the Watchtowers.
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  96

  Challenges Facing the Watchtower Org

  by eric356 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ive been thinking about the future of the watchtower organization and the challenges it faces in coming decades.

  its difficult to address the issue without allowing personal feelings affect the analysis.

  many people seem to think that the society will collapse fairly soon, based mostly on the fact that the person dislikes the leadership or cant understand how others can believe the doctrine.

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  neverendingjourney

  The flaw that plagues a lot of the speculation on this board (in my opinion) is that we tend to view things from a rational perspective of people no longer indoctrinated in the WT belief system. Therefore, we tend to look at things from the vantage point of what "makes sense," or to put it another way, what a rational business/religious organization in a comparable position would do. That's a mistake.

  Most signs point to (again, in my opinion) the GB being delusional believers who honestly expect some version of their religious expectations to play out sometime soon. They're waiting on the Jehovah life-boat to come by and fix everything for them. That, of course, isn't going to happen. That's why I tend to think there is a strong possibility of something really goofy happening down the road in the sense of certain GB members getting desperate because the end never came.

  Now, there are indeed mixed signals coming from the top. Long gone are the days when Rutherford ruled with an iron-fist and all policy-making authority resided with one individual. It's clear to see that legal/political concerns are driving at least some of the policy decisions. The more you see practical, real-world concerns driving policy/doctrine, the more you can believe that the decision-makers have become more cyincal and pragmatic. I don't see that right now. However, if the more cynical types win control, it's very easy to see an LDS-like mainstreaming movement take foot because it makes practical sense. This would be a path that a rational, non-indoctrinated leadership would make. If the more delusional types win out (think Loesch), however, I think the future really is unpredictable.
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  96

  Challenges Facing the Watchtower Org

  by eric356 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ive been thinking about the future of the watchtower organization and the challenges it faces in coming decades.

  its difficult to address the issue without allowing personal feelings affect the analysis.

  many people seem to think that the society will collapse fairly soon, based mostly on the fact that the person dislikes the leadership or cant understand how others can believe the doctrine.

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  neverendingjourney

  Good analysis!

  

  However, you appear to assume that the evolution of the Watchtower movement will be steady and gradual. I don't disagree that this is one way in which matters could play out. Nevertheless, I think there is a good possibility of a tipping-point, game-changing event down the road that could figuratively blow things up. Before you think I'm being unrealistic, allow me to explain.

  If we postulate (and I do) that the governing body members believe in the Watchtower organization whole-heartedly, as opposed to being cynical manipulators, let's try to put ourselves in their shoes. Each is clearly more delusional than your average member, as evidenced by their claiming to be anointed despite the strong institutional pressure against such claim. Moreover, they've invested their lives into this belief system. It is becoming quite clear that the current JW belief system has failed. What would we do if we were governing body members? We could keep pretending like nothing's changed, keep repeating the same ol' "the end is right around the corner" mantra, or we could do what the Bible Students did when 1914 didn't pan out: re-invent the religion in significant ways.

  Big, significant changes are harder to bring about in Watchtower today because of its rule-by-committee structure. From what we know, 2/3 of the GB must agree on any changes to traditional policies. But, what if you have several strong personalities on the GB who start believing that Jehovah is personally using them to correct something or another in the organization? We can easily see how the seeds of discord can be planted and could potentially lead to power struggles at the highest levels of the organization. If you combine that with an already-weakening faith of the membership in the Western world, and perhaps a decline in membership/donations that serves to create a quasi-panic situation, it's not hard to envision a scenario where significant changes are brought about in the Watchtower organization in a fairly short period of time, perhaps along the lines of what happened at the World Wide Church of God.

  Again, I'm not saying this scenario is any more likely than the more gradual scenario you described above. I'm just saying it's a possibility we should consider as well.
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  35

  Do you agree to disagree?

  by cyberjesus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  sometimes in many conversations or debates, some people try to end it by saying "i agree to disagree".

  if you have an inquisitive mind and critical thinking, are you comfortable disagreeing about factual information?

  i am not referring to opinion.

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  neverendingjourney

  All I've said is that when the time comes (whether through death or Christs second coming) WE will see who is right and who is not. If I'm right, too bad

  for you. If your right, then wow...how horrible.

  I used to end my conversations with recalcitrant householders in field service in a very similar fashion. It's been so long, I've forgotten my pet scripture in Acts where the apostles say some variation of this. At the time, I thought it was a pretty cold-blooded way to end things, but actually it was acknowledgment of defeat.

  I could not conclusively prove my position, nor could I disprove the householder's position. So all I was left with was, "We'll see." It was defeat because I was the one claiming to have truth. Truth, by definition, should be provable. By acknowledging that I could not in fact prove the "truth" I was peddling by any conventional methods, my allegations were proven false. What I was bringing them was opinion, not truth. I wasn't telling people that my position was better than other religious positions; I was preaching "truth." If you can't prove "truth" you're preaching, then you have in fact proven yourself a liar.
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  24

  Brotherdan's New Blog

  by brotherdan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  although i know it is not the place to advertise, i just wanted to inform you guys that i am starting a new blog.

  i will be updating it at least weekly.

  it will be an analysis of older wt publications.. as you'll see in my first post, my intention isn't to "bash" the watchtower, but only to give a critical eye to what was said (good and bad) and how it contributed to the jw culture that we see today.. if anyone is interested, check it out.

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  neverendingjourney

  Here's to hoping you (or anyone for that matter) is able to succeed in this endeavor. There is a lack of good, dependable information out there on the early history of the Watchtower movement and its leaders. I'd love to read some good biographies about Russell and Rutherford, but I haven't really found any. I'd also like to read a condensed, yet thorough summary of the movement's beliefs and the evolution of same, but I haven't found that either. Most of the material out there, with the notable exception of Ray Franz's works, is quite biased one way or another.

  I've come to believe that our former religion is really of interest to mainly two groups of people: JWs and XJWs. JWs, of course, get their history strictly from WT sources. As far as XJWs, most just drift away and don't bother spending too much time really understanding the movement they were a part of. They're either just happy to be free or retain a semblance of an it's-still-the-truth-and-I-might-go-back-one-day mentality. Other XJWs spend a few months (years?) learning about JWism, but eventually most of us get bored or tired of rehashing the same material over and over and decide to leave the past behind. Either way, there doesn't appear to be much of a market for these sorts of materials. I have no idea how many books Ray Franz sold, but I'd imagine his books (being "must reads" for XJWs) represent the "ceiling" of how well material about JWism can perform commercially, which is probably not very well at all. I don't think Ray ever got rich off of his books.

  I suppose there is probably some interest in academia, but JWs are notoriously unwilling to cooperate in any way with academic studies of their religion, so maybe any academics or grad students attempting to study JWism simply give up and decide to focus their efforts on other subjects. After all, it's not like JWism is anything more than a slight curiosity to the vast majority of the public, a minor footnote in the history of modern life.
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  35

  Could They Dump The Assemblies?

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my theory continues to be that the governing body will be forced to break down the organization piece by piece.. so, i wonder: could they dump the assemblies?.

  it is clear - that they are having some problems in this area.

  they are selling off assembly halls in some countries, they have moved some district assemblies to assembly halls (to save money on rent) and the pleas for donations from the platform have not let up.. while zombie witlesses may drag themselves to meetings and out in service (with whatever literature/magazines the watchtower manages to afford) indefinitely, i watch this area with interest.

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  neverendingjourney

  They are also remarkably similar to Mary Kay, Amway and all the other successful multi-level marketing shindigs.

  My brother was being recruited by an Amway guy some time ago. Despite my warnings, he bought the special kit that allows you to start selling their stuff. Then he started attending their meetings and things went downhill.

  Amway's set up was remarkably similar to the JW set up. Weekly meetings. Special regional conventions at various times of the year. Titles for overachievers and devotees. Promises of a huge payday...soon.

  Most of all he was put off by the evangelical feel of it all. He's deathly afraid of the dreaded demons and felt these people might be under the influence of Beelzebub, so he dropped off the Amway map. Unfortunately, he didn't see his experience with Amway as reflecting poorly on the Watchtower. The corporatism and MLM schemes JW worship is influenced by escaped him completely.
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  43

  Skeleton's Come Tumbling out of Bethel's Closet - Ray Franz- Book ISOCF

  by flipper in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my wife and i are towards the end ( finally ) of reading " in search of christian freedom " by ray franz .

  ( long book 728 pgs.

  on pg.

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  neverendingjourney

  touché
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  43

  Skeleton's Come Tumbling out of Bethel's Closet - Ray Franz- Book ISOCF

  by flipper in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my wife and i are towards the end ( finally ) of reading " in search of christian freedom " by ray franz .

  ( long book 728 pgs.

  on pg.

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  neverendingjourney

  I recently heard a Baptist minister give a graveside service in which he spoke of the lady being in Heaven, but that one day her body

  would be ressurected and re-united with her spirit/soul.

  I'm not a believer, but it's clear to me that there are many ways to reconcile the various scriptures on this point.

  Since we're on the topic of Ray Franz's books, I'll add that one of the benefits I got out of them was realizing the sheer arrogance and audacity of Watchtower leadership to presume to have discovered the one true way to interpret all of the scriptures on all points of doctrine.

  Methinks had their leaders undergone rigorous academic training, they would have realized how complex the subjects they presume to speak on behalf of God for actually are. Instead, you have a bunch of people who are generally too ignorant to realize how much other "stuff" is out there that they're missing. I mean, Fred Franz had one or two years of college under his belt. Most of these guys were working with a high school education or less (CTR). I don't think it would have been as easy for them to buy into their own bullshit had they studied theology at Harvard, for instance.

  The fact that they live in an ivory tower echo-chamber doesn't help, either.
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  43

  Skeleton's Come Tumbling out of Bethel's Closet - Ray Franz- Book ISOCF

  by flipper in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my wife and i are towards the end ( finally ) of reading " in search of christian freedom " by ray franz .

  ( long book 728 pgs.

  on pg.

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  neverendingjourney

  Thank you, snowbird.

  I am perfectly happy to wait to see what the eternal destiny of people will be according to God’s disposition, and I feel we are wise not to pretend to be so certain that we know all there is to know on the subject.

  This makes perfect sense and is in line with the generally non-dogmatic characteristic of his two books.

  Some mainstream churches teach that upon death, the person will go to Heaven for a time, but that at some point, they will get a fleshly body and live in Paradise-like conditions. The WT will never tell you that.

  Right. I remember encountering Pentecostal/Evangelical types out in field service who expressed variations of this idea.

  In all honesty, it made a lot more sense than what the WT was teaching. The doubts began to crystallize as we studied the Revelation book. The study book interpreted the passage describing the tree of life being in the paradise of God to mean heaven. Well if the Bible used the term "paradise" in conjunction with heaven, then why couldn't the petting-lions-in-paradise Scriptures have their fulfillment in heaven?

  For the first year or so of my wholehearted involvement with this religion, I would actively engage these people believing I had the truth. After that, deep down inside I knew my positions were untenable, but cognitive dissonance took over. From about the second year forward I would simply avoid these people in field service. If it was clear they were knowledgeable of the Bible and could back up their positions, I would simply excuse myself and move on to the next door