Posts by t33ap80c

47

1914- What's the big deal if it's the wrong date?

by cognac in

jw
friends

i hear it a lot on this board that the 607 date is wrong... i figured that out while i was a jw... never really thought much about it though.

just thought, ok, if it's wrong then everything is moved up about 20 or so years.... and for that matter, why is it such a big deal to the society?

why can't they just fix the date so it's right.

t33ap80c

Hi Hamsterbait,

You asked where the "Proclaimers" book says that "Christ did not return to the vicinity of the earth (even invisibly) in 1914."

Their statement is in paragraph 1 on page 137 of the "Proclaimers of God's Kingdom book. It reads this way...

[The Bible Students] came to understand that it was in the year 1914 that Christ's invisible presence had begun and that this was, not by his personality returning (even invisibly) to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King."

I don't know how I missed including that page reference in my book. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'll fix it.

Don Cameron
www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com

27

Watchtower Comments (3.10.08 Be Guided) FEATURING DON CAMERON

by V in

.

t33ap80c

JWfacts,

Whenever I see the various terms that are used to refer to "God's organization" I always think of the men of the Governing Body who are hiding behind whatever terms are use. It helps me notice the difference between what they are saying and what it actually means. And if what Ray Franz said about these men still holds true today, even those men don't see the difference between what they are saying and what it means. - Crisis of Conscience, p. 296, 297

And if they don't notice the difference it makes it very difficult for Jehovah's Witnesses to notice the difference.

Don

29

V Counts 480 HOURS of Service in February!!

by V in

so my service overseer just called to get my time.

a quick check on my youtube account watchtower comments showed over 6,900 views in the month of february.

"that's 480 hours of witnessing this month, brother.

t33ap80c

A PDF (Download) version of the book is only available at www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com

If you like the printed pages to always lie nice and flat when opened to any page, a coil binding version is also available there. Of course, the regular "perfect binding" version is also available.

Don
www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com

119

Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

by minimus in

jw
friends

for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

?

t33ap80c

Minimus asked…

Could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the Truth"?

I think it is interesting that according to the Society’s most up-to-date book of the organization’s history ("Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom") the Society’s first three presidents (Conley, Russell and Rutherford) never knew that Jesus returned in 1914 (assuming that he did return in that year).

How does that fact fit Jesus’ "faithful and discreet slave" illustration at Matthew 24:45-47? It doesn’t fit.

How "faithful" must God have considered them to be when it is realized that He apparently didn’t want those to know when his Son had returned?

And how "discreet" had they been when they announced the wrong date (1874) for 67 years (1876-1943)?

If in 1918-1919 Jesus had examined what those men had been teaching about him, what are the chances he would have said to them: "Well done you faithful and discreet slave"?

Don Cameron
www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com

20

What is the most important thing you've learned about communication?

by esw1966 in

jw
friends

i have a memo to write for english.

i need to 'interview' people about communication and it's place in the work force.

i would really appreciate the input and help on this assignment if you have any comments.. (i'd go to the awake, but.... .

t33ap80c

One of the interesting things the I have learned about communication:

"You cannot change someone's mind by proving that they are wrong."

I got that from Ros over on "Channel C"

Don Cameron
CaptivesOfaConcept.com

6

What were the main doctrines in 1919?

by freedomfighter in

jw
friends

i would like to know what the then bible students believed at this time in history.

also, what were they allowed to do, that they cannot do now?.

since they were accepted by jesus in this year - it has meaning for me.

t33ap80c

Hi Barbara,

You explained that although Peloyan believed most of the Society's main teachings, he didn't believe in Fred Franz's "speculative bunk" that Jesus' appointed Rutherford and his associates "over all his belongings" in 1919.

It has seemed to me that the Society's claim to being "Jehovah's faithful and discreet slave organization" is based on their having received the above appointment in 1919. If Peloyan didn't believe they they received it, then why did he still believe the Society is God's organization?

DonCameron

6

What were the main doctrines in 1919?

by freedomfighter in

jw
friends

i would like to know what the then bible students believed at this time in history.

also, what were they allowed to do, that they cannot do now?.

since they were accepted by jesus in this year - it has meaning for me.

t33ap80c

Hi FF,

You asked, "Since (according to the Society) they were accepted by Jesus in (1918-1919), why did Jesus appoint them over all his belongings?"

The Society's current answer to your question is found on page 24 of the January 15, 2008 Watchtower:

When Christ inspected the (Society) in 1918, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing (the right) spiritual ‘food at the proper time. ’ Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them ‘over all his belongings.’ (Read Matthew 24:45-47.)"

My personal feeling is that the only way to know if Jesus would have been "pleased" with the spiritual food the Society had been providing down till 1918-1919 is to make the same 'inspection' that they say Jesus made at that time.

When Ray Franz finally made the above inspection he didn't think there was any chance that Jesus would have been pleased with the spiritual food the Society had been providing down till that time. He expressed his feelings this way:

"It would be an insult to Christ Jesus to say that he selected this organization on the basis of what it was teaching as of 1919." - In Search of Christian Freedom, p. 145

The book Captives of a Concept tries to show why Jesus would have been so displeased with what the Society had been teaching that there is no possible way he would have given them the appointment mentioned in Matthew 24:47. And therefore there is no possible way the Society could be God's organization today.

Don Cameron
www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com .

14

Anointed looking a bit younger - Feb 15th WT

by The Scotsman in

jw
friends

been a wee while since i have been here, holidays and stuff.. anyway, i received the new feb 15th wt last night, the one with the generation change.

they have inserted an image that is meant to represent the anointed class, it is not like the usual ones.

generally these pics would have them with gray hair looking very old, but this image "in my opinion" seems to show them a bit younger.

t33ap80c

Does anyone know if the AWAKE! masthead page still reads as follows:

"Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things."

I notice on the Society's website they have removed the underlined part of the above statement so that it looks like this:

"The Watchtower and Awake! both build confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world." -

http://www.watchtower.org/e/publications/index.htm

Don

18

Which WT teachings did RAY FRANZ mean were "an insult to Jesus Christ"?

by yesidid in

jw
friends

in another thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/147300/2.ashx .

don cameron quotes ray franz:.

"it would be an insult to christ jesus to say that he selected this organization on the basis of what it had been teaching as of 1919.. to which teachings would you say he was referring?

t33ap80c

Hi Yesidid,

#1:
According to the Society's interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47* Jesus would have based his decision to appoint the Society only on what they had been teaching down till 1919. That's why Franz said "as of 1919." Therefore, whatever they were teaching after 1919 (no matter how false it was) would not have entered into his decision in 1919.

Witnesses have been trained to automatically apply Proverbs 4:18's "old light" to all of the Society's pre-1919 teachings that were not true. But it doesn't register with them that those teachings were not considered as old light in 1918-1919. And something else they don't think about is that the time to pass an examination is when it is given, not several years (sometimes decades) after the exam is over. And the Society says that Jesus' exam was over in the spring of 1919.

#2:
Personally I feel that there was one teaching in particular that would have gotten Jesus' attention. If in 1918 he had asked the question "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?" (Matthew 24:45)* they would have answered according to what they believed: "Charles Taze Russell." And so according to what they teach today, the Society would have failed that most important question.

How faithful or discreet could the Society have been when it is realized that God didn't let them know (1) that his Son had returned in 1914 (assuming he did return in that year), nor (2) who his Son's "slave" was?

According to their interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47*, in the spring of 1919 Jesus was saying to them, "You are my faithful and discreet slave." But according to their actual history they were saying, "We are not your faithful and discreet slave."

If Jesus did in fact try to appoint Rutherford and his associates "over all his belongings" in 1919, they would have rejected his offer because they believed that Russell had already received that appointment.

The Point: The only way the Society even has a chance of being "God's organization" today is if what went on in their history actually happened according to their interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47.* But since their history and their interpretation do not agree on such critical matters (and the other pre-1919 teachings already mentioned on this thread), this is why Ray Franz and many others feel that it would be an insult to Christ Jesus to say that he was so pleased with what they had been teaching as of 1919 that he gave them the awesome appointment mentioned in verse 47.
_____________________
* Here is their interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 as it appears on page 24 of the January 15, 2008 Watchtower:

"When Christ inspected the faithful and discreet slave' in 1918, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus was pleased thereafter to appoint them 'over all his belongings .' (Read Matthew 24:45-47)"

Don Cameron

32

Why Are Jehovah's Witnesses NOT "The Truth"???

by minimus in

jw
friends

list your reasons why you can say that the witnesses clearly do not have "the truth".

t33ap80c

Here is the Governing Body's most up-to-date interpretation of the Scripture that Blueblades mentioned (Matthew 24:45-47) as explained on page 24 of the January 15, 2008 Watchtower:

"When Christ inspected the faithful and discreet slave’ in 1918, he found those anointed ones on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual ‘food at the proper time.’ Hence, Jesus was pleased thereafter to appoint them ‘over all his belongings.’ (Read Matthew 24:45-47)"*

... The only way the Society could be "The Truth" today is if Jesus had been so pleased with what they Society had been teaching down till 1918 that he gave them the above appointment mentioned in verse 47. There is only one possible way to know if they could have passed such an inspection. And that is to make the same inspection they say Jesus made.

The reason why there are millions of people today who sincerely believe that the Society did pass Jesus' examination is because not a single one of them has ever made such an exam themselves. But what about those who have made it? What have they concluded?

It took Raymond Franz almost 60 years of association with the organization before he decided to make it. When he finished, rather then thinking that Jesus would have been pleased about what the Society had provided in the way of spiritual food, he expressed his conclusion this way...

It would be an insult to Christ Jesus to say that he selected this organization on the basis of what it had been teaching as of 1919.

When I made my own examination I concluded the same thing. Therefore this is why I believe that the organizational religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is NOT (and never has been) "The Truth."

Don Cameron