Posts by ANewLeif

61

Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?

by ANewLeif in

there are many things the bible says christians could do and things the bible describes christians doing that, according to their doctrine, jws can't do.. christians could talk directly to jesus.

(acts 7:54-60; acts 9:3-16) can you?

christians could decide for themselves which days they chose to observe without any fear of religious retribution.

ANewLeif

yadda-yadda,

You said, "Nonsense. Anyone that confesses faith in Jesus Christ, believes that he is their personal saviour and redeemer and obeys his commandments is a Christian."

Not according to Jehovah's Witnesses. The criteria for being a Christian, according to Jehovah's Witnesses, is much more extensive than yours. Did you really not know that?

Even then, how can Jehovah's Witnesses believe someone is their personal savior to whom they cannot even speak? At best, such a savior is an impersonal savior. JWs teach all but 144,000 are only saved by extension, only the elect are directly redeemed ("bought from the earth"). Therefore, the vast majority are not saved by a personal savior at all.

Among Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus is not even considered the mediator for any but the 144,000. How can these people possibly believe they are Christians?

In answer to the rest of your concerns, I already wrote to qcmbr that I wasn't addressing every religion and comparing every religion to the entire Bible. I was addressing Jehovah's Witnesses, as a religion, and comparing its doctrine specifically to the First Century Christians.

If your contention is really that JWs are no different than nearly every other mainstream Christian religion when it comes to having doctrines that disagree with the Bible, I would agree but for one fact: JWs do not believe any other religions are Christians or that any adherents to other religions are Christians. While there are some other religions that hold similar doctrine, most Christian religions do not.

You wrote, "Those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones when it comes to doctrine."

I don't live in a glass house. I don't establish doctrine and then declare that anyone who disagrees with my opinion on Scripture will be eternally destroyed at Armageddon. I don't haughtily declare that I am God's sole channel of communication on earth, doctrinally shortening the hand of God and limiting the power of the Holy Ghost for millions of people. I don't say that everyone who rejects that authority is anathema.

Any criticism I have of JW doctrine is always held in my mind against that specific backdrop. Unlike most other churches, JW dogma is held to be inviolable on pain of disfellowshipping.

Their wanton hubris will be their downfall.

ANL

24

When is the Special Talk?

by tinker in

jw
friends

my son invited me but i lost the email.

he is giving the talk...yikes!.

ANewLeif

Elsewhere, shame on you! There is no comparison between the JW beliefs and sweepstakes. People actually win sweepstakes from time to time.

ANL

42

I scammed a Craigslist scammer!

by moshe in

i had a dresser for sale on craigslist and as so often occurs some guy wants to buy it and have his shipper pick it up- i emailed him and told him that craigslist says he had the m-o of a crook.. he emails me back and say he is still interested and will pay the fullprice, so i changed the emailed header from re: dresser $55 to re: dresser $955 and emailed back was he ok with the price and how did he want to pay for it.

his english has the syntax of someone who uses it as a 2nd language- he never saw or the mentioned the price change i did!.

so, true to form he was going to send me a cashiers check - for $3000 and i was to keep out my money and then send a western union mailgram for the difference to the shipper in a city 300 miles away- .

ANewLeif

Oriental guy's name spelled backward. LOL!

I have a new hero.

ANL

61

Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?

by ANewLeif in

there are many things the bible says christians could do and things the bible describes christians doing that, according to their doctrine, jws can't do.. christians could talk directly to jesus.

(acts 7:54-60; acts 9:3-16) can you?

christians could decide for themselves which days they chose to observe without any fear of religious retribution.

ANewLeif

Qcmbr,

IF JWs had a doctrine that included divine revelation as being the source of their doctrines that differ from the First Century then your point would have merit. In their case, they have no such doctrine of divine revelation. They specifically state that they have not had such revelations in modern times.

I was not attempting to address the problematic doctrines of every religious faith, nor to compare JWs to any currently existing religion. I was attempting to address the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses. I understood that to be the purpose of this forum. I was also comparing their doctrine and behaviors to the doctrine of known Christians in the First Century. JWs accept the book of Acts as a factual relation of events in the First Century and accept the canon of Scripture that comprises the Authorized Version of the Bible. Other religions that do not obviously cannot be weighed by the same measures.

Regarding circumcision, I would not be forced to hold the Mosaic covenant as binding if I am not a Jew. To impose that was ludicrous to all but recently converted Jews, which I have never been. My logic does not impose upon me the standards of the OT. The OT was not written for Christians, but for the Jews. Dozens of parctices of Judaism have not been handed down through Christianity because they make no sense for Christians. We were freed from the burden of the written law by its fulfillment. Our law code is written by spirit upon hearts; not handed down through organizational edicts in the Watchtower or through Papal bulls.

ANL

61

Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?

by ANewLeif in

there are many things the bible says christians could do and things the bible describes christians doing that, according to their doctrine, jws can't do.. christians could talk directly to jesus.

(acts 7:54-60; acts 9:3-16) can you?

christians could decide for themselves which days they chose to observe without any fear of religious retribution.

ANewLeif

If they used the name Yahweh, as in Yahweh's Witnesses, they would be properly called Yahwists.

They do not come in the name of Christ Jesus, they are not persecuted in the name of Jesus, they do not endure in the name of Jesus, they do not call on the name of Jesus to be saved, they do not request that Lord Jesus receive their spirit, they do all these in the name of Jehovah. They are not Christians. They are Jehovists.

kwr, can you really demonstrate an error in what I posted about them, or can you only keep asserting the same unfounded proclamation that JWs are Christians? The latter seems to be the case. In that event, you aren't discussing the Scripturally supported points I raised you are just preaching your own unsupported contrary opinion.

ANL

61

Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?

by ANewLeif in

there are many things the bible says christians could do and things the bible describes christians doing that, according to their doctrine, jws can't do.. christians could talk directly to jesus.

(acts 7:54-60; acts 9:3-16) can you?

christians could decide for themselves which days they chose to observe without any fear of religious retribution.

ANewLeif

kwr,

If a group is not characterized by what Christians were and are doctrinally not allowed to do what Christians did, then they are not Christians, regardless of whether they self-identify as Christians.

I am not a dog. Even if I call myself a dog you can plainly tell that I am not a dog. How? By comparing me and my behaviors to known dogs and discerning the many points of contrast.

Apply the same comparitive logic to JWs and you will quickly prove to yourself that they are not Christians. What positive measure do you use to assert that they are a Christian group?

ANL

61

Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?

by ANewLeif in

there are many things the bible says christians could do and things the bible describes christians doing that, according to their doctrine, jws can't do.. christians could talk directly to jesus.

(acts 7:54-60; acts 9:3-16) can you?

christians could decide for themselves which days they chose to observe without any fear of religious retribution.

ANewLeif

kwr,

I am not attacking the people. I am addressing the religion's doctrine. My contention is that the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses disallows JWs from being Christian; the doctrine prevents them from doing what Christians do. There were good and bad Jews as well, but no one argues that good Jews were Christians. There are also good and bad Islamists, but they are not Christians.

I do not suggest that all non-Christians are bad people. If you read that into what I wrote it came from your own mind, not mine.

ANL

20

IYO, what r the most problematic scripture(s) for dubs?...or lack there of

by *jeremiah* in

hey everyone,...in your opinion, (1) what scripture or passages in the bible completely go against jdub doctrine?

scriptures that the dubs really can't answer or really can't fit into their equation,...thus, they go unnoticed or avoided.

(2) or,...what scriptural proof should be in the bible to back their doctrinal claims.

ANewLeif

Matthew 28:19, 20 ... if each individual Christian should preach and teach, then each individual Christian should also baptize.

The book of Acts is full of references to what JWs now call "interfaith." The Christians went into the temples and synagogues all the time, listening and teaching.

ANL

61

Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?

by ANewLeif in

there are many things the bible says christians could do and things the bible describes christians doing that, according to their doctrine, jws can't do.. christians could talk directly to jesus.

(acts 7:54-60; acts 9:3-16) can you?

christians could decide for themselves which days they chose to observe without any fear of religious retribution.

ANewLeif

There are many things the Bible says Christians could do and things the Bible describes Christians doing that, according to their doctrine, JWs can't do.

Christians could talk directly to Jesus. (Acts 7:54-60; Acts 9:3-16) Can you? Do you?

Christians could decide for themselves which days they chose to observe without any fear of religious retribution. (Romans 14:5-12) Can you? Do you?

Christians could enter into centers of false religious worship, respectfully listening and teaching, without any fear of religious punishment for interfaith activities. In fact, a careful study of Scripture bears out that this was the most commonly mentioned form of preaching. (Acts 5:17-26, 41-42; 9:19-22; 13:4-47; 14:1-7; 17:1-4, 10-22; 18:1-19:10; 21:26-32; 24:9-21) Can you? Do you?

Christians could baptize others without an extensive doctrinal study course, without the prospective Christian attending any meetings, without the prospective Christian preaching to anyone beforehand, and without verifying that the prospective Christian knows the doctrines of Christianity beforehand. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 2:37-42; 8:26-40; 10:34-48; 16:11-15; 25-34) Can you? Do you?

Christians were individually expected to use logic and reason to determine for themselves whether doctrines they heard were from God or were from false prophets. Their determination was not based on accompanying works (preaching, construction, good deeds, etc.) but their determination balanced solely on the merits of the doctrine itself; the test was contingent upon true or false doctrine, truth or lies. (Acts 17:10-11; Romans 12:1-2; Hebrews 5:11-6:3; 1 John 4:1; Revelation 2:1-4) Can you? Do you?

These are things Christians could do and did do. If Jehovah's Witnesses are doctrinally forbidden to follow the example of Christians, then how can JWs possibly be Christians? I believe if any of Jehovah's Witnesses considers these Scriptures and answers these questions honestly they cannot avoid concluding they are mixed up in a false religion masquerading as Christianity.

ANL

67

Maybe I should go back and be a good little dubbie again!!

by AK - Jeff in

i believe that i am experiencing a profound change in my personality, and those changes are at a stage where i have honestly contemplated this recently.

honestly.. i don't think i could ever do it - anyone who has followed me on the boards here know that i am neither suicidal nor an apologist for that lot.

yet, having been off work for a few weeks now with surgical recovery, i have had time to make assessment of my future.

ANewLeif

I met some new friends at Applebee's last night. We now have plans to meet there every other Friday. The male in the relationship is in his mid 50's, the female in her late 40's. My wife and I are in our mid 30's.

People who want friends have to go where other people are and meet them. It is never too late to make friends; friends are a precious and rare commodity even though everyone needs them, so there are always friends ready to be made.

I will try to send you a private message.

ANL