Posts by Mebaqqer2

13

What is the Firmament?

by VM44 in

in genesis the firmament is first mentioned.. god said, "let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

and god made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

and god called the firmament heaven.

Just to let you know...

"And birds could later be said to fly in 'the expanse of the heavens,' as stated at Genesis 1:20."

Actually, Genesis 1:20 does not say that the birds fly "in" the expanse (raqia') of the heavens, it says that the birds fly literally "above the earth in front of/above the surface ('al-p'ney) of the raqia' of the heavens." "in the raqia'" would have been bireqia' see Gen. 1:14, 15, 17; Ps. 150:1.

Mebaqqer

6

J28 reference?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i have seen on several websites lists of sources for readings in the new world translation which seem to have been cut-and-pasted from the wtlib cd.

i noticed, however, that some of these lists give an additional j-source (j28) not found in my english editions.

(j28 is said to be the new covenant commonly called the new testament: peshitta aramaic text with a hebrew translation.

Mebaqqer2

Doug said

I wonder if the WTS's action is therefore a support for [the claim that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic]? It would be interesting to pursue, given the fact that the WTS NT inserts Hebrew letters into a text written in Greek letters. Are they now saying that the original that provides them with YHWH were Aramaic letters? But then how can they cite the LXX as a support for YHWH, when that was written in Greek? What a minefield.

I think the mindfield is cleared up once you realize that all the J-sources are used, not as the basis for "restoring" the Divine Name into the New Testament, but to confirm decisions already made by the translators. I mean, J21 is an English source and yet they are not by its usage saying that the New Testament was originally written in English! The J-sources then, only serve to justify their translation, not serve as the basis for it.

This becomes apparent when discussing mundane examples. For example, John 8:44 in the original 1950 release was as follows:

because he is a liar and the father of the lie(a)

(a) the lie, J17; it, ? B Vg

Here we see an example of where "of it" has been made explicit. I doubt any translator would have argued against the NWT that this represents a distortion of the meaning here and some might even translate as the NWT does for clarity. Slight paraphrasing from time to time is sometimes necessary when translating. What is interesting is that the NWT translators felt they needed to explain themselves here and actually look for justification in their textual sources. Yet any textual critic here would judge J17 as a having a paraphrasic reading here to make "of it" explicit and not a real variant as implied by the 1950 NWT footnote which sets one reading against another. It is no wonder that the later revisions handle this much better and box the words "the lie" and say "lit. 'it', and yet they still cite sources, J17, 22, to somehow bring validation to their paraphrase that is wholly unnecessary.

Mebaqqer

6

J28 reference?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i have seen on several websites lists of sources for readings in the new world translation which seem to have been cut-and-pasted from the wtlib cd.

i noticed, however, that some of these lists give an additional j-source (j28) not found in my english editions.

(j28 is said to be the new covenant commonly called the new testament: peshitta aramaic text with a hebrew translation.

Mebaqqer2

Following the cue from Possible, I have tracked down the Spanish version to find out more about this source. Here is a list of the places cited for J28:

MATTHEW
1:20+ Ky; J3,4,7-14,16-18,22-24,28
1:22 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,22-24,26,28
1:24 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,22-24,28
2:13 Ky; J1-4,6-14,16-18,22-24,28
2:15 Ky; J1,3,4,6-14,16-18,22-24,28
2:19 Ky; J1-4,6-14,16-18,22-24,28
3:3 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,20,22-24,26,28
4:7 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20,22-24,28
4:10 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20,22-24,28
5:33* Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,22,23,28
21:9 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20-24,28
21:42 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16-18,20-24,28
22:37 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20-24,28
22:44 Ky; J1-14,16-18,20-24,28
23:39 Ky; J1-14,16-18,21-24,28
27:10 Ky; J1-4,7-14,16,17,22-24,28
28:2 Ky; J1-4,7-13,16-18,22-24,28

MARK
1:3 Ky; J7-14,16-18,22-24,28
5:19* Ky; J7-10,17,18,22,28
11:9 Ky; J7,8,10-14,16-18,21-24,28
12:11 Ky; J7-14,16-18,21-24,28
12:29 Ky; J7-14,16-18,20-24,27,28
12:29 Ky; J7-14,16-18,20-24,28
12:30 Ky; J7-14,16-18,21-24,28
12:36 Ky; J7-14,16-18,21-24,28
13:20 Ky; J7,8,10,13,16-18,22-24,28

LUKE
1:6* Ky; J7-17,23,28
1:9* Ky; J7-18,22,23,28
1:11 Ky; J7-13,16-18,22-24,28
1:15 Ky; J7,8,10-18,22,23,28
1:16 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
1:17 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
1:25 Ky; J7-18,22,23,28
1:32 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
1:38 Ky; J5,7-18,22-24,28
1:45 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
1:46* Ky; J5-18,22,23,28
1:66 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
1:68 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
1:76 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
2:9 Ky; J5,7,8,10-18,22-24,28
2:15* Ky; J5,7,8,10-18,22,23,28
2:22* Ky; J5-18,22,23,28
2:23 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
2:23* Ky; J5-18,22,23,28
2:24 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
2:26 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
2:39 Ky; J5-18,22-24,28
3:4 Ky; J7-15,17,18,22-24,28
4:8 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
4:12 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
4:19 Ky; J7-18,20,22-24,28
5:17 Ky; J7-18,22-24,28
10:27 Ky; J5-18,21-24,28
13:35 Ky; J7-18,21-24,28
19:38 Ky; J7-18,21-24,28
20:37 Ky; J9,11-18,21-24,27,28
20:42 Ky; J7-18,21-24,28

JOHN
1:23 Ky; J5-14,16-19,22-24,28
12:13 Ky; J7-14,16-19,21-24,28
12:38 Ky; J7-14,16-20,22-24,28

ACTS
2:20 Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
2:21 Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
2:25* Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22,23,28
2:34 Ky; J7,8,10-18,21-24,28
3:19* Ky; J13-18,22,23,28
3:22+ Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
4:26* Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22,23,28
5:19 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24,28
7:31 Ky; J11-18,22-24,28
7:33* Ky; J11-18,22,23,28
7:49 Ky; J11-18,20,22-24,28
8:26 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24,28
8:39 Ky; J13,15-18,22-24,28
11:21 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22,23,28
12:7 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24,28
12:11* Ky; J7,8,10,13,15,16,18,23,28
12:17* Ky; J7,8,10,28
12:23 Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24,28
13:10* Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22,23,28
13:11 Ky; J7,8,10,15-18,22-24,28
13:49* Ky; J7,8,10,13,15-18,22,23,28
15:17* Ky; J11-18,22,23,28
15:17 Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
16:32+* Th; J7,8,10,17,18,22,23,28

ROMANS
9:29 Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22-24,28
10:13 Ky; J7,8,10,13-18,22-24,28
11:34 Ky; J7,8,10,13-18,20,22-25,28
14:11 Ky; J7,8,10-18,22-25,28
15:11* Ky; J7,8,10-18,20,22,23,25,28

1 CORINTHIANS
1:31 Ky; J7,8,10-14,16-18,22-24,28
2:16 Ky; J13,14,16-18,22-24,28
3:20 Ky; J7,8,10-14,16-18,20,22-24,28
4:4 Ky; J7,8,10,17,18,23,24,28
4:19* Ky; J7,8,10,22,23,28
7:17+* Ky; J28
10:26* Ky; J7,8,10,11,13,14,16-18,20,22,23,28
14:21 Ky; J7,8,10-14,16-18,22-24,28
16:10 Ky; J7,8,10,13,14,16-18,24,28

2 CORINTHIANS
3:16 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,22,24,28
3:17* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,28
3:17 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,22,24,28
3:18 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,22,24,28
3:18 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,22,24,28
6:17 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
6:18 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
10:17 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
10:18* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28

EPHESEANS
2:21 Ky; J7,8,13,16-18,22-24,28
5:19* Ky; J7,8,13,16,23,28

COLOSENSES
3:22+* Ky; J18,22,28

2 TIMOTHY
2:19 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,20,22-24,28
2:19 Ky; J18,22-24,28

HEBREWS
7:21 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
8:8 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
8:9 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
8:10 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22,24,28
8:11* Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22,23,28
10:16 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,22-24,28
10:30 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
12:5 Ky; J7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28
12:6 Ky; J3,7,8,11-18,20,22-24,28

JAMES
1:7* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
3:9+* Ky; J18,23,28
4:10 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
4:15* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
5:4 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
5:10 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
5:11 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,18,22-24,28
5:11* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28

1 PETER
3:12 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,20,22-24,28
3:12 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,20,22,24,28

2 PETER
2:9 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
3:8 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
3:9 Ky; J7,8,13,16-18,22-24,28
3:10 Ky; J7,8,13,16-18,22-24,28

JUDE
9+ Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
14 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28

REVELATION
1:8 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
4:8 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22,24,28
4:11* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16,18,28
11:17 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
15:3 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
15:4 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
16:7 Ky; J13,14,16-18,22,23,28
18:8+ Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
19:6 Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24,28
21:22* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,23,28
22:5 Ky; J7,8,11-14,16-18,22-24,28
22:6* Ky; J7,8,13,14,16-18,22,24,28

Beyond this, it is cited at:

Luke 2:38 (“Dios”,? AB; VgSyp,s: “el Señor”; J5,7-17,28: “Jehová”) = Jehovah
Acts 7:30 (“Un ángel”, P74?ABCVg; DSyp: “un ángel de[l] Señor”; J7,8,10-17,28: “el ángel de Jehová”) = the angel of Jehovah
Acts 7:37 (“Dios”,? ABVg; CSyp: “El Señor Dios”; J7,8,10-17: “Jehová su Dios”; J28: “Jehová Dios”) = Jehovah God
Acts 14:25 (“Palabra”, BD;? ACVgSyp: “palabra del Señor”; P74: “palabra de Dios”; J17,28: “palabra de Jehová”) = word of Jehovah

I wonder why they have not updated this source in English versions. After all, it does give them "confirmation" for 1 Cor. 7:17. Thank you Possible for looking into this for me.

Mebaqqer

6

J28 reference?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i have seen on several websites lists of sources for readings in the new world translation which seem to have been cut-and-pasted from the wtlib cd.

i noticed, however, that some of these lists give an additional j-source (j28) not found in my english editions.

(j28 is said to be the new covenant commonly called the new testament: peshitta aramaic text with a hebrew translation.

Mebaqqer2

Hello, I have seen on several websites lists of sources for readings in the New World Translation which seem to have been cut-and-pasted from the WTLIB CD. I noticed, however, that some of these lists give an additional J-source (J28) not found in my English editions. (J28 is said to be The New Covenant Commonly Called the New Testament: Peshitta Aramaic Text With a Hebrew Translation. Ed. The Aramaic Scriptures Research Society in Israel, Jerusalem: United Bible Societies, 1986.) All of the sites that refer to this J-source are not in English. (see for example http://espanol.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070514092334AAjG0ru [Spanish]; http://freeforumzone.leonardo.it/lofi/2-Timoteo-2-22-quelli-che-invocano-il-Signore-Ges-249-dimostrabile-/D6152004.html [Italian]) Thus, I assume that this is a source which was later utilized in some foreign language editions of the New World Translation. My question is, is this assumption correct? and if so where is it cited in support of the New World Translation's readings in those non-English editions? Mebaqqer

2

partial translation of possible-san's page

by Mebaqqer2 in

well, everyone was wondering about what the japanese text said on the page possible-san referenced (http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/pages/jw/akashijunzo.html) so i worked on translating it.

i placed it here rather than his post as his post has ready scrolled out of the new topic area and i wasn't sure if anyone would see.

anyways, here is the first part.... the words of junzo akashi.

Mebaqqer2

Well, everyone was wondering about what the Japanese text said on the page possible-san referenced (http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/pages/jw/akashijunzo.html) so I worked on translating it. I placed it here rather than his post as his post has ready scrolled out of the new topic area and I wasn't sure if anyone would see. Anyways, here is the first part...

The Words of Junzo Akashi

- Contents of the letter sent to president Nathan H Norr after World War II by the pre-war representative Junzo Akashi (July, 1889 – November 14, 1965) of the Japanese branch (Todai Company) of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses) –

(picture stuff omitted for now)

Hikari Bulletin. Special Edition. 3 rd issue. July 15, 1947:

1 . For at least the past ten years, I can not approve of the signs of progression in the explication of Biblical truths.

2 . In regards to the present, the desperate claims for the campaign to recruit citizens [for God’s Kingdom] does not biblically conform with the so-called theocratic(1) establishment.

3 . The policy of encouraging the so-called witnessingcampaign of God’s kingdom, in brief, is no more than for recruiting members into the Watchtower Society.

4 . The guidelines of the headquarters, as concerns loyal Christians, causes (them) to live peacefully in a cheap, self consultative place outside of the sole standard specified in the Bible.

5 . In spite of their own being conscience or not, the manufacturing of various personal rules and regulationssnatches away the freedom that has been awarded at long last to true Christians by means of the Lord Jesus and, with regards to the Watchtower headquarters, causes a result in which compulsion through blind obedience to their superiors to be apparent .

6 . In spite of the headquarters currently teaching non-compromise with this world in regards to Watchtower followers, the actions of the headquarters itself show clear proof of compromise in regards to this world.

7: The construction of the so-called “Gilead Seminary” was an absolutely rebellious reversal(2) to what is indicated in the Bible."

(1) The Japanese word for "Theocratic" here is shinkenseiji. The bold emphasis from possible-san's page is only on part of this word, so I have tried to reproduce that emphasis here.

(2) I could not figure out how to translate the word haihangyakkou accurately. This is actually a compounded word. haihan means "revolting; rebellion; going against; contradiction; antinomy" and gyakkou means "adverse; go backward; retrograde". "rebellious reversal" is the best I could to to make sense of the compounded idea.

...The words that follow will have to wait for another time as it would take me more time that I can devote right now.

Mebaqqer

5

Information on the J Sources?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i was wondering about two things.

does any one have more detailed information on the j-sources used by the new world translation?

names of books, publisher, etc.?

Mebaqqer2

Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry. My aim in asking about the J-sources was really to get more information on the sources themselves. I understand that all the J-sources are relatively modern and translations from GREEK into other languages, mainly Hebrew (except the debatable example of J2, Shem-tov's Hebrew Matthew). I guess what I was looking for can be more clearly seen in the following example:

In the "Textual Symbols" section of The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures it says this concerning J9:

"Gospels, Heb. and Lat., by Giovanni Battista Jona, Rome, 1668"

This is a little vague. The section "Explanation of Symbols" in The New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures gives a little more detail:

"Gospels in Hebrew. In 1639 John Baptist Jonah, a Jew who joined the Roman Catholic Church, completed his translation of the four Gospels into Hebrew from the Latin Vulgate. Jonah was a professor of Hebrew in the Roman Academy, Rome. His Hebrew translation was finally published in Rome in 1668 by the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda (S.C. Prop. Fidei). It contained a page of dedication to Pope Clement IX."

Neither of these, however, gives the exact title of the book. Fortunately, however, with the available information we can figure out the work referred to is:

Iona, Ioanne Baptista. Arba?a abne hag-giljonim me-hat-Tora ha-?adaša ašär nä?taqu mil-lešon romi lel-lešon ?ibri, Qvatvor Evangelia Novi Testamenti Ex Latino in Hebraicum fermonem verfa. Rome: S. C. Prop. Fidei, 1668.

Some of the books referred to, however, have not been as easy to figure out. For example, I have been unable to find out any further information on either the old and new J19 (this source was changed in 1984 to a different book). Thus, I was hoping someone out there had exact information on J-sources of these kind.

Secondly, I was wondering if anyone had any of the J-sources available. I myself have on hand J1, J2, J4, J17, J21, J24, and J25. I was wondering if anyone else had some of these sources on hand or available in PDF / scanned form.

Mebaqqer

5

Information on the J Sources?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i was wondering about two things.

does any one have more detailed information on the j-sources used by the new world translation?

names of books, publisher, etc.?

Mebaqqer2

Greetings all,

I was wondering about two things. Does any one have more detailed information on the J-sources used by the New World Translation? i.e. names of books, publisher, etc.? The information on some of the J-sources, particularly those in Hebrew, are kind of vague. The 1950's New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures at times sheds some light on these sources, but others I have still not been able to get exact information on.

Also, does anyone have some of these J-sources in PDF or scans in those places referenced by the New World Translation? I have found some on the internet and some I have purchased. However, many of these sources have proven to be very old and elusive. Those who wish to may message me offline as well.

Mebaqqer

Migne volumes on Google books

by Mebaqqer2 in

for those who might be interested in seeing the greek texts of patristic works, i just found migne volumes on google books.

these works were produced in the 1800's so for many of the works, there are no doubt better editions out there (i personally use the tlg cd).

but what do you expect for free?

Mebaqqer2

For those who might be interested in seeing the Greek texts of patristic works, I just found Migne volumes on Google books. These works were produced in the 1800's so for many of the works, there are no doubt better editions out there (I personally use the TLG CD). But what do you expect for free? ~~Anyways, here is the link to get anyone started:~~

~~http://books.google.com/books?as_q=&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_libcat=0&as_brr=0&as_vt=&as_auth=Jacques-Paul+Migne+&as_pub=&as_sub=&as_drrb=c&as_miny=&as_maxy=&as_isbn=~~

Be warned, there is no English translation with these. All the translations of the Greek texts are in Latin. Still, you might find these useful if used in conjunction with the ANF series, etc.

Mebaqqer

Link didn't work properly, so just search for inauthor:Jacques-Paul inauthor:Migne in Google books.

7

Willing to part with the Kingdom Interlinear (1985)?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i was just wondering if anyone had a copy of the kingdom interlinear of the christian greek scriptures (1985) that they would be willing to part with (either don't need it or have an extra copy).

i think the price on amazon is excessive ($49.99 used.

older, 1969 edition is cheaper at $28.00 used!!!).

Mebaqqer2

I am researching the translation technique of the New World Translation and am interesting in seeing all they have written on the Greek and Hebrew languages.

Mebaqqer

7

Willing to part with the Kingdom Interlinear (1985)?

by Mebaqqer2 in

i was just wondering if anyone had a copy of the kingdom interlinear of the christian greek scriptures (1985) that they would be willing to part with (either don't need it or have an extra copy).

i think the price on amazon is excessive ($49.99 used.

older, 1969 edition is cheaper at $28.00 used!!!).

Mebaqqer2

I am interested in obtaining the 1985 version precisely because there are differences. I already have access to the 1969 version, so I would like to compare them. By the way, you said there are differences. Do you have examples? The only example I know of thus far is in Colossians 2:9 where the 1969 edition reads "godship" in the word-for-word rendering, whereas the 1985 edition reads "divinity."

Mebaqqer