i am wondering as the wts is so keen on making 'times and half a time' apply to this and that scripture, i am wondering if anyone else has had the energy need to use 'biblical supposed prophecy times that are completely different, like 607 dogma, can it be made different to arrive at a point in history that could be claimed similar calamities.. .
i am not sure how clear i am making myself.. has anyone used dating within the bible to arrive at dates about the end of the world or armageddon before the 20th century.
and references would be great.. steve.
They've all interpreted the numbers in a myriad of ways to come up with many other intelligible dates. Check out the date 1799 for the beginning of the time of the end that Russell and the Adventists before him used
Thats some great information , thanks. It certainly gives me a starting point.
regards
steve
healthy people don't go to a doctor.
if they do they are hypochondriacs.
hypochondriacs spend their time and money on imagined illnesses.
It seems to me that many who post here think religion is the big evil. As far as I'm concerned, human nature being what it is, some charlatan will come along and prey on those with problems in any case. If they don't do it in the name of religion, it will be politics, pseudo science or medicine or something else.
I actually agree with you .
The only point i will make is the other stands you mention ( politics etc) is something that can be debated out, but when you have someone claiming their are doing the will of an almighty God, you have little to debate on.
As long as we fuel human nature will the idea that somehow some almighty god is talking to them and more importantly talking these people seriously, then religion is a big evil.
And on a side side the other reason i subscribe to this way of thinking is the effect it has on children. Now being a JW board i will not mention no JW related issues of how children are brought up, but JW teach their children that certain lifestyles are wrong and discriminate on that basis alone. Also the JW religion are willing and bearing mind go to court to allow a religious belief rather than blood related medical treatments for their children.
And more importantly restrict their children access to science based information, rejecting evolution on evidence grounds fair enough, you have research it yourself, rejecting evolution on religious grounds is breeding ignorance.
steve
healthy people don't go to a doctor.
if they do they are hypochondriacs.
hypochondriacs spend their time and money on imagined illnesses.
life after death is outside of the physical world
Says who?, this is a religious statement, which is unprovable in any means, as we live in a material universe. Science can actually answer this question easily, there is NO evidence for life after death, nothing has been observed or recording showing anything leaves the body at death.
If one wanted to maintain this statement then you have to also consider that on death, the person is re-born into a another body, or insect, that the persons so-called spirit turns into marshmallows.
Also i would suggest that even non-direct evidence could be made available to use in our material universe, why has no one ever come back from the dead to talk to us? and tell us what is like. simplest answer is their is no life after death, or to put it another way, life after death is about as likely as marshmallows being made from the spirits of dead people.
I think science can and does aanswer the purpose of life.
regards
steve
healthy people don't go to a doctor.
if they do they are hypochondriacs.
hypochondriacs spend their time and money on imagined illnesses.
First off Terry I agree with you 100%, secondly what i am about to say is a comment about myself not a comment about you or anyone else.
When i was a JW there was a saying that you should lock up the new JW for the first 18 months as they are bubbling. I think the same could be said about me when I first came to realise how hard religion and belief falls down if you put its claims to the test. I say how much damage was being done to people in general. The so-called benefit of religion are null.
That being said, when i stated to confront those who challenge why i believed that why my retort to them which was like pulling the rug out from underneath them was never met with open arms. There are so many way to approach this subject, by showing the damaging effects of religion, the paradox of God or gods, the evil within the OT. But when you pull something that has support people most of their lives , i dont think their is a way to gently hint to them, As much as I wince sometimes at the likes of Dawkins and hitchings, at least they cause debate, they almost force people to confront and prove the reason for their belief, which they are never able to do.
Arrogance is when you you believe something to which their is no evidence and criticizing someone for saying you are wrong. Maybe somewhere in future some evidence will surface to suggest a god, but until then, should be be accomadting for those that believe? well i guess the believers who think we should should ask themselves this question:
How much time would i give someone on this board who believed that fairies exist, or better yet believed they are the messiah, whatever your reply, bear in mind the evidence for either of these things is no less than that of a god existing.
Anyone that think Terry position is arrogant, please take time to read the following books
Death by black holes & Origins byNeil degrasse Tyson
god is not great by Christopher Hitchings
The bible.
If after reading those you still think of a single Christian god, come back and tell me .please.
Religion is an illusion of a social crutch, but anyone knows that saocial link is a false one, any ex-jw knows friendship only extends while you agree with them.
Sorry for the verbal diarrhea
Steve
i am wondering as the wts is so keen on making 'times and half a time' apply to this and that scripture, i am wondering if anyone else has had the energy need to use 'biblical supposed prophecy times that are completely different, like 607 dogma, can it be made different to arrive at a point in history that could be claimed similar calamities.. .
i am not sure how clear i am making myself.. has anyone used dating within the bible to arrive at dates about the end of the world or armageddon before the 20th century.
and references would be great.. steve.
I am wondering as the WTS is so keen on making 'times and half a time' apply to this and that scripture, I am wondering if anyone else has had the energy need to use 'biblical supposed prophecy times that are completely different, like 607 dogma, can it be made different to arrive at a point in history that could be claimed similar calamities.
I am not sure how clear i am making myself.
Has anyone used dating within the bible to arrive at dates about the end of the world or Armageddon before the 20th century. and references would be great.
Steve
this morning it occured to me how much death is in the bible.
just off the top of my head: cain & abel, the flood, the guy who was going to sacrifice his son (isaac?
), the slaughter at jericho, jesus (and that includes torture), and all the death in revelation.
This was taken from a blog, from what i check this guy has it pretty much dead on ( pun intended). Thank Zeus its all fairly tales.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html
So far I come up with a total of 2,270,365 (not inlcuding, at least in some cases, women and children).
| SAB, Brick Testament | Number Killed | Cummulative Total | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Lot's wife for looking back | Gen.19:26, BT | 1 | 1 |
| Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" | Gen.38:7, BT | 1 | 2 |
| Onan for spilling his seed | Gen.38:10, BT | 1 | 3 |
| For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf | Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT | 3000 | 3003 |
| Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord | Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT | 2 | 3005 |
| A blasphemer | Lev.24:10-23, BT | 1 | 3006 |
| A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath | Num.15:32-36, BT | 1 | 3007 |
| Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) | Num.16:27, BT | 12+ | 3019+ |
| Burned to death for offering incense | Num.16:35, 26:10, BT | 250 | 3269+ |
| For complaining | Num.16:49, BT | 14,700 | 17,969+ |
| For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" | Num.25:9, BT | 24,000 | 41,969+ |
| Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) | Num.31:1-35, BT | 90,000+ | 131,969+ |
| God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. | Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT | 5+ | 131,974+ |
| God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). | Joshua 8:1-25, BT | 12,000 | 143,974+ |
| Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees | Joshua 10:24-26, BT | 5 | 143,979+ |
| God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites | Judges 1:4, BT | 10,000 | 153,979+ |
| Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly | Jg.3:15-22, BT | 1 | 153,980+ |
| God delivered Moabites | Jg.3:28-29, BT | 10,000 | 163,980+ |
| God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. | Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT | 120,000 | 283,980+ |
| The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson | Jg.14:19, BT | 30 | 284,010+ |
| The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson | Jg.15:14-15, BT | 1000 | 285,010+ |
| Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism | Jg.16:27-30, BT | 3000 | 288,010+ |
| "The Lord smote Benjamin" | Jg.20:35-37, BT | 25,100 | 313,110+ |
| More Benjamites | Jg.20:44-46 | 25,000 | 338,110+ |
| For looking into the ark of the Lord | 1 Sam.6:19 | 50,070 | 388,180+ |
| God delivered Philistines | 1 Sam.14:12 | 20 | 388,200+ |
| Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death | 1 Sam.15:32-33 | 1 | 388,201+ |
| "The Lord smote Nabal." | 1 Sam.25:38 | 1 | 388,202+ |
| Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling | 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 | 1 | 388,203+ |
| David and Bathsheba's baby boy | 2 Sam.12:14-18 | 1 | 388,204+ |
| Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord | 2 Sam.21:6-9 | 7 | 388,211+ |
| From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) | 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 | 70,000+ | 458,211+ |
| A prophet for believing another prophet's lie | 1 Kg.13:1-24 | 1 | 458,212+ |
| God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands | 1 Kg.20:28-29 | 100,000 | 558,212+ |
| God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers | 1 Kg.20:30 | 27,000 | 585,212+ |
| God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet | 1 Kg.20:35-36 | 1 | 585,213+ |
| Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. | 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 | 1 | 585,214+ |
| Burned to death by God | 2 Kg.1:9-12 | 102 | 585,316+ |
| God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head | 2 Kg.2:23-24 | 42 | 585,348+ |
| Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah | 2 Kg.7:17-20 | 1 | 585,349+ |
| Jezebel | 2 Kg.9:33-37 | 1 | 585,360+ |
| God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners | 2 Kg.17:25-26 | 3+ | 585,363+ |
| Sleeping Assyrian soldiers | 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 | 185,000 | 770,363+ |
| Saul | 1 Chr.10:14 | 1 | 770,364+ |
| God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah | 2 Chr.13:15-17 | 500,000 | 1,270,364+ |
| Jeroboam | 2 Chr.13:20 | 1 | 1,270,365+ |
| "The Lord smote the Ethiopians." | 2 Chr.14:9-14 | 1,000,000 | 2,270,365+ |
| God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out | 2 Chr.21:14-19 | 1 | 2,270,366+ |
| Ezekiel's wife | Ezek.24:15-18 | 1 | 2,270,367+ |
| Ananias and Sapphira | Acts 5:1-10 | 2 | 2,270,369+ |
| Herod | Acts 12:23, BT | 1 | 2,270,369+ |
This doesn't include the flood or S&G.
Interestly Satan has only killed 8 in the OT. So who is the moral one again.
that seems to be the question around here lately.. people's panties have been getting into quite a twist over this one.. personally, i don't believe.
but i'd like to put that aside and focus on something else.. i'd like to focus on: now what?.
what can we individually and collectively do to make this planet a better place to live?
This is a funny thing that i have heard a number of times, and also found myself doing as well.
Since I threw out all the wool rubbish that is religious belief, i have found I am:
1) More tolerant of other people and their lifestyles
2) More Charitable
3) More environment aware
4) More of a desire to 'really' make a different
5) Read more books!
6) Better understanding of life and its origins
7) Planning for retirement more seriously now
8) will ensure my children get a better education and continue into Uni.
I have yet to come across a down side to have no religious belief anymore.
Steve
the dragons post about wether satan was a hypocrite got me thinking.. .
if according to gen 3:15 and the prophecy thats supposed to mean satan was going to kill jesus (brusing in the heel) and then jesus is going to destroy satan (bruising in the head) that would mean satan would know at an early stage what his life would entail right?.
if i was satan (i'm not by the way) i might have 'looked' at this and other prophecies and decided i'm not going to help fulfill them.
Satan: I challenge your rule!
God: Okay, you can have the chance to challenge it.
God: Oh, by the way, I've already seen the future, I win then I kill you.
God: Have fun!
Satan: Dammit!
Quote of the day!, I love it.
my young daughter asked this question regarding adam & eve:.
if they were perfect, why did they need to eat from the tree of good and bad anyway?.
we eat to nourish our bodies, we eat to replenish, we eat for energy....they were perfect and would not need those things.. from the mouth of babes.... what's your thoughts....
The funny about Adman an eve is this:
Its Gods fault they sinned.
They hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of Good and bad, Hence if they didn't know good from bad, How did they know not listening to God commandment was bad?
Then when they didn't do what Jehovah commandant them, God blames Satan and them!...what the hell.
It like the head of air traffic control putting a child in the cockpit of an airplane to fly it, without givien it any 'knowledge of how to fly or what not to do' then the child crashes the plane, then blames the child for the mistake. Isn't the controller at fault here.
Interestingly they never got chance to eat from the tree of life, so that would indicate that they did not have the ability to live forever until they did.
regards
steve
dear friends,.
lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.
for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.
I also want to move the point back to the water canopy, it has been suggested that the flood, was only part of the known world at the time, apparently making it more viable, and that 'every mountain top covered' could refer to local ranges only.
SO working on that basis That would still require a flood depth of 5Km assume that mount Ararat would be covered by the at least 15 cubits.
Now the more popular vapour canopy has been dismissed here by JCannon as being a ice canopy existing in orbit. the problem with an ice canopy is that it would exist in a similar orbit to how Saturn rings exist, now inventing a miracle in biblical proportion to shift this ring or even globe of ice out of orbit would result in not rain hitting the earth but steam, This would be caused by the gravitational potential of this amount of ice, and if you were to make the ice ring into a ice globe you will just produce more stream, so noah's flood would have been a global steam bath, not a lot of use with an ark.
The vapour canopy as suggested and taught by the WTS, fails completely at every turn. However i read a very interesting comment that if the water canopy did exist then this would have certainly made carbon14 dating incorrect. But examine the evidence of a vapour canopy and their are much bigger problem for the canopy to exist in the fist place, let alone be released.
For Noah to have lived in a canopy environment as suggested by the WTS, the atmospheric pressure would have been the equivalent to being 9km under water. this can be worked out from fairly similar calculation.
SO here are some figures for the canopy support brigade
Just 12 inches globally held in the atmosphere of rain would increase the earth surface beyond boiling point, in fact just 4 inches would bring the earth surface temp to over 144oF . http://home.entouch.net/dmd/canopy.htm
Atmospheric pressure with a canopy of vapour require to flood the earth would take earths current 15psi pressure to 970psi, and that a very bad headache.
The problem is the canopy theory holds no water! 