I agree, great link!
I especially like the parts about Americans, Mormons, and athiests. Oh, yes, and Life of Brian!
Cliff and Toby, tee hee!
Thanks, Moxy!
Ginny
GinnyTosken
JoinedPosts by GinnyTosken
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4
Welcome to hell
by Moxy ina classic and delightfully irreverant skit from rowan atkinson (shame on you if you know him only as mr bean!
) which ill be serving up for a little while for your listening enjoyment.. it seems perfectly appropriate to this gang.. http://members.home.com/aghull/devil.mp3.
this skit always reminds me of how id wonder just what jehovah was going to do at armageddon to make sure 'all will know' just why theyre gettin the big brush-off.
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26
Tattoo You?
by SixofNine indon't take this as any kind of condemnation; it's just a question.
i'm curious about what the tattooed among us think.
why are you confident that you will be glad you have your tattoo ten or twenty years from now?
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GinnyTosken
Six,
Forgetting your love of puns, I read the story and kept looking for a picture. A sailor's tale . . . nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. I must protest that my backside is only wide enough for a short anecdote.
Little Debbie
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Tattoo You?
by SixofNine indon't take this as any kind of condemnation; it's just a question.
i'm curious about what the tattooed among us think.
why are you confident that you will be glad you have your tattoo ten or twenty years from now?
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GinnyTosken
Six,
A sketch would be helpful. I have no idea what a "Sailor's Tail" is.
Ginny
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Tattoo You?
by SixofNine indon't take this as any kind of condemnation; it's just a question.
i'm curious about what the tattooed among us think.
why are you confident that you will be glad you have your tattoo ten or twenty years from now?
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GinnyTosken
Six,
I have no tattoos, so I can't help you there.
I've been longing to get a small scarlet letter "A" for about ten years now. It just seems so very naughty!
Ginny
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Farting As To Victory!
by Englishman inshould farting be a df'able offence?.
should farting only be ok for consenting adults in private?.
what about young bethel boys who have been know to darken a room so that their farts can be clearly observed once they have been lit, are they exhibitionists?.
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GinnyTosken
Should farting be a DF'able offence?
Yes, if the farts are stinky and the noxious gases are released in the presence of others. The Bible says: "You must love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:39) Like smoking, such farts do not show love of one's neighbor and open up one's mind to demonic influence.
Should farting only be OK for consenting adults in private?
A fart is a mixture of gasses, mostly carbon dioxide, hydrogen and methane. Hydrogen and methane are highly flammable. The Bible says of Jehovah God: "With you is the source of life." (Psalm 36:9) So life is a divine gift. Consequently, we have no right to take that gift away from anyone or to show disrespect for life, including, of course, our own.—Genesis 9:5, 6.
In ancient Israel, safety was a high priority in all aspects of life. For example, when a house was built, God's Law required that its roof—a place of considerable family activity—have a parapet. "You must also make a parapet for your roof, that you may not place bloodguilt upon your house because someone . . . might fall from it." (Deuteronomy 22:8) If someone fell because this safety law had not been observed, God held the owner responsible. Application of the loving principle embodied in this law would move true Christians to abstain from the unnecessary risks associated with farting.
What about young Bethel boys who have been know to darken a room so that their farts can be clearly observed once they have been lit, are they exhibitionists?
If the farts have been privately tested and shown to have only fractions of flammable gases and are odorless, such an activity is a matter of conscience. "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
Should farting be an all-male event from which sisters are excluded, and why are girlie farts so awful?
Again, if the farts have been privately tested and shown to have only fractions of flammable gases and are odorless, such an activity is a matter of conscience. Sisters may expel such farts in the presence of brothers if they don a head covering while doing so.
As was stated in The Watchtower, 12/15 1961, p. 767,
(see http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=4556&site=3#54080 )
we can learn about nature and sex and farts from the bovine family of mammals, both wild and tame.
Large herds of cattle, both male and female, wander over the plains feeding. The female of the species naturally craves more gas producing foods like cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, bran, beans, broccoli and cabbage to be in top condition to attract a male willing to engage in the breeding act. Afterwards she is contented and relaxed, and the end result is a fart.
Do farts smell purely for the benefit of the deaf?
What a loving provision from Jehovah to take into consideration the needs of ones disabled by the wages of man's sinful tendencies! We look forward to the time when the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped and the eyes of the blind shall be opened.
Will there be farting after Armageddon?
Yes. Isaiah 65:25 says, "The wolf and lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy..." With no carnivores and more herbivores, there will actually be more farting after Armageddon. What a blessing from Jehovah!
Do the Anointed ones fart in Heaven?Anointed ones follow the example of their Heavenly Farter.
Betty Bowers answers this question beautifully from her Louis Quinze desk:
Dear Ms. Bowers:
We are taught that we are created in God's image. Does this mean that God is just like us? If so, does this mean that God breaks wind?
Wondering in Wichita Falls
Dear Wondering:
The Ladies of Landover Baptist's "Dawn Bible Study" yesterday involved a rather hot-tempered discussion about the Lord's Blessed Flatulence. We all know from Isaiah 16:11 that God's Flatulence sound like "harps." While we had some disagreement about whether it is an actual song or just random notes, we agreed to disagree, with most of us leaning heavily in favor of a little snippet from the, pardon the expression, third movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony.
Where we really broke into very heated disagreement was over the actual aroma of this Heavenly Flatulence. Regrettably, there is no guidance in the Bible in this regard. Sister Taffy is absolutely adamant that the Winds on High smell like fresh-baked pineapple upside-down cake. But I'm not so sure. I am quite certain, however, that Sister Suzzanna Beth's suggestion that it smells like Elizabeth Taylor's Black Diamonds is completely misguided. In the end, we compromised by deciding that the Lord's Fumes most likely evoke a rather musky potpourri aroma that would be rather oppressive on humid days.
So Close To Jesus That Communion Is Like Leftovers,
Betty BowersDid the early congregation fart as much as JW's do today? If not, does this mean that JW's are not the right religion?
Scholars diverge in their opinions on the amount of farting done by the first century congregation, so it is difficult to compare. However, the measure flowing into the toilets of Jehovah's chosen people has been a fine one, pressed down, shaken together, and overflowing, a tangible sign of heavenly approval.
Sister Ginny
P.S. Englishman, please give my warm regards to her Ladyship and your sons, Holiday Inn, Bike Shed, and Front Room Carpet.
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Do bethelites get social security?
by sleepy ini was just wondering you know whether in bethel workers get credited with whats called in britian national insurance.. in britian you carnt miss six years of payment and expect a full goverment pension which isn't much anyway.also you cant claim full income support , sickness benifit or job seekers allowence if you have missed or underpaid you ni.. this came to mind as my wife worked for a company that didn't pay contributions for her .. when latter on she lost her job the goverment wouldn't pay her any job seekers allowance as no ni contributions were credited for that year.. so does bethel pay ni contributions for bethelites and circuit overseers and the like.
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GinnyTosken
Blondie,
I had the impression that the vow of poverty was a recent change. I was never a Bethelite, so I don't know for sure. I'm nosing around on the net, trying to find some of the posts from H2O in which we discussed the impact of the reorganization shortly after it occurred. Meanwhile, I did find an article in Christianity Today with a quote from Ray Franz. Perhaps he is only referring to how things changed in Germany:
Franz added that in Germany, the government ordered the Witnesses to provide severance pay to staff members. "Now when people apply [to join the staff], they sign a vow of poverty, which frees [the WTBTS] from having to treat the person as an employee," he said.
from http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/004/25.html
Ginny
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Do bethelites get social security?
by sleepy ini was just wondering you know whether in bethel workers get credited with whats called in britian national insurance.. in britian you carnt miss six years of payment and expect a full goverment pension which isn't much anyway.also you cant claim full income support , sickness benifit or job seekers allowence if you have missed or underpaid you ni.. this came to mind as my wife worked for a company that didn't pay contributions for her .. when latter on she lost her job the goverment wouldn't pay her any job seekers allowance as no ni contributions were credited for that year.. so does bethel pay ni contributions for bethelites and circuit overseers and the like.
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GinnyTosken
I know that the Society's not paying into Social Security or pension funds was an issue in France and an accusation the Society addressed in one of their tracts.
Apparently, not wanting to pay social security taxes and other taxes was one of the reasons the printing facility was moved from France to Englishman's "Best Country in the World." Here is a letter I found on the "Comments to the Friends" site:
http://www.cftf.com/online/1998JulSepp12.html
Dear Brother
Please don't use my name. I'm still inside.
In France too, like Germany, we have been encouraged to get registered on the voting list (excuse my so poor American) and to vote (blank, that is to say not putting a sheet in the envelope). (I speak of POLITICAL VOTING.)
This week the congregation were adviced that the printing plant of France (just inaugurated) would be transfered to England because of the government who said the workers don't pay the charge for the retirement [fund?] and social security. (Difficult to explain to you.)
Watch Tower is the same [as] international companies who put out workers to find cheaper ones in another country.
What a shame.
There is a big decrease in France this year (more than 2% since September).
Please no name — God bless you
FranceSince the recent reorganization of the corporations in Brooklyn, I believe that Bethel workers now take a vow of poverty. According to Social Security Publication 517, this exempts them from Social Security tax on their meager earnings. I would also assume that if they do not pay taxes on these earnings, they will not accrue credits toward a later social security pension while working at Bethel.
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/forms_pubs/pubs/p517toc.htm
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/forms_pubs/pubs/p51701.htm
Ginny
[Edited to correct "I would also also assume . . ."]
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JW income in France
by Kent inthe funding of jehovah's witnesses' worship in france.
[previous part: 9 - conclusion] .
appendix - financial resources of the national congregation of jehovah's witnesses of france.
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GinnyTosken
In regard to JW finances in France, here is something I posted to H2O in November 2000. Back taxes owed by the Society in France amounted to around $38.9 million on January 18, 1999, significantly more than the $2.9 million shown in the chart posted by Kent, and apparently adding up to about two year's total income for the Society in France. This tax figure ballooned from an original $19.7 because the Society did not pay Caesar's things to Caesar when first asked.
If you'd like to look at these figures in your own currency, try:
http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi
When I checked just now, 1 French Franc = 0.139474 U.S. Dollars
Ginny
Posted by Ginny Tosken [GinnyT] on November 08, 2000 at 13:48:12 {2D/QBXsh1U7fLSrSG9icFbqv3I7Em.}:
On the TJ Recherches mailing list, Charles Chasson posted a paragraph-by-paragraph rebuttal of the tract recently distributed in France by the WTS.
I found the financial information especially interesting and asked Charles' permission to share a part of his post here. He kindly agreed. My translations are rough, but I think enough comes through to get the general idea. I use the BabelFish program to give me a base translation and then comb through it with a French dictionary. Any mistakes are probably mine, not Charles'.
Ginny
In answer to the paragraph that says:
A tax on their church-offering [or donations], with heavy penalties, is thus required retroactively for the years 1993 to 1996. All to be paid by the faithful [followers], the great majority of whom live with modest means.
Charles Chasson quotes from Report No. 1687 of the National Assembly (p. 195):
The audit of the Association of Jehovah's Witnesses revealed the existence of a receipt of 250,579,860 francs received in the form of gifts between January 1, 1993 and August 31, 1996. In accordance with the General Tax Code, these gifts were subject to gift taxes calculated at the rate applicable to transfers on a purely free basis between non-related people, that is to say 60%. This resulted in back taxes owing of about 150.3 million francs. Since the Association did not pay these taxes within the deadlines, late interest was added, that is to say 26.8 million francs, calculated pursuant to article 1727 at the rate of 0.75 % per month. Moreover, the same association did not deposit, within an extension of 30 days following a second declaration, a formal warning containing [the indication of elements to retain for assessment? {I am not sure how to translate this.}] or the liquidation of these rights. Consequently the increase to 80% (that is to say approximately 120.3 million francs) envisaged in article 1728.3 of the same code was applied. The total of taxes and penalties against the Association of Jehovah's Witnesses thus reached 297.4 million francs, summons put in recovery on January 18, 1999."
Charles Chasson comments:
You will notice that the Jehovah's Witnesses, true to their legendary humility, did not answer a request for a declaration in spite of a second formal warning, which was worth an additional 123 million francs to them and for which the penalties of delay, despite the extension given by the administration, are 23 million francs. The Jehovah's Witness chiefs are responsible for more than half of the sum which they owe to the tax services!!!I (Ginny) translated this into dollars and was amazed. The WTS take in France over three years was about $33 million. That's $11 million a year! [From the chart posted by Kent, their yearly income for 1998 is given as $19.8 million.] If they'd paid the taxes when first asked, the bill would have been $19.7 million. Because they delayed, the bill was something like $38.9 million on January 18, 1999. Their refusal to pay has already cost the faithful at least $19.2 million dollars, not to mention legal expenses, travel, the expense of moving equipment around, and the costs of printing tracts about the issue.
I'd question the figures, especially a harsh penalty adding 80% of the amount due if not paid on time, but Charles Chasson quotes from a National Assembly report itself.
Charles Chasson continues:
There is no personal enrichment at the Jehovah's Witnesses, all is sacrificed to the idol that is their organization which will seize the power at the time of the New System upon which Jehovah's Witnesses wait--fanaticism is not inevitably related to personal enrichment and stock exchange appreciation. But while Jehovah's Witnesses pretend to their followers not to have any more money, the parliamentary commitee reveals what follows (p.194):c) The Absence of Declaration of Income from Inheritance
Sectarian associations are often holders, as has been seen, of financial securities which earn income for them. Pursuant to article 206-5 of the General Tax Code, the associations not subjected to the corporation tax "are subject to that tax because . . . of the incomes from movable capital" they have. Regardless of the profitable character of their activities, all associations are thus taxable on the basis of their financial products. In spite of the importance of the income drawn from its financial assets, the Association of Jehovah's Witnesses did not conform, before its audit, with this provision. It consequently underwent a recall of tax of 7.3 million francs for the products received between September 1992 and August 1996."Charles continues:
Wouldn't it be interesting to know how much capital it takes to generate 7.3 million [francs] payment of back taxes in 4 years? As by chance besides, our Jehovah's Witness heads had forgotten to declare this kind of revenue.In the same vein (p.155):
The financial fixed assets and marketable securities held by the national authorities of Jehovah's Witnesses reached, as of August 31, 1998, 62.9 million francs. Local associations of the same sect would have also carried out financial placements which, according to the information submitted to the Commission, would have represented nearly 500 million francs deposited on the network of only one bank. This information does not correspond to the estimates of the national persons in charge of the Jehovist organization who declared before the Commission that the credit of local associations reached a total of 600 million francs, primarily consisting of real estate investments."
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God on Trial - #1
by Amazing inpremise: many who have read the bible over the centuries have accepted it as authoritatively from god, and have glossed over some glaring inconsistencies, contradictions, and shear nonsense.
some cultish groups have attempted to mimick the myths and twisted beliefs they have derived from the bible.
jehovah's witnesses are no exception to this.. this raises the questions: if the bible (as we know it) is from god, having his stamp of authorship and approval, then can we ever at some point raise serious questions about it?
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GinnyTosken
Reading this thread, I thought of this section from Skinny Legs and All by Tom Robbins.
Ginny
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“Ah, but there is no comparison,” Abu objected. “The Israeli army uses excessive force in quelling protests on the West Bank, true enough, and sometimes sadistic and cruel force, but even though it is racially motivated, and directed against my cousins, I must regard it an insignificant trifle compared to the Holocaust—”
“Hold on, my friend,” said Spike. “For one minute, hold on. Holocaust? We Jews perpetrated our own holocaust, I’m telling you. When? Who against? Over three thousand years ago against the Canaanites, that’s when and who. How is the Land of Canaan turning suddenly into the Land of Israel? By what sale, what deal, eh; what magic trick? By a holocaust. The Hebrews escaping from Egypt invaded Canaan and killed everybody, the whole country, old men, women, children, little babies what were in arms. A million, we butchered. Look it up. In history, maybe the first recorded act of genocide. The only Canaanites left alive were a few what were good for slave labor.”
“Wow!” said Ellen Cherry. “That’s pretty heavy. But that was a very long time ago. And, anyway, weren’t the Jews just taking back their homeland; you know, fighting to recover their promised land from these Canaanites?”
“Ha! So who is telling you this? The ghost of Moses, maybe? A homeland the Hebrews have never had. We’re nomads, already. Our tribes shlepped through this Canaan, lived there among its inhabitants for a while. Then, most of them moved on into Egypt. So, a long time passed, and then the Hebrews were slaves of the pharaoh, too bad for us, and this guy Moses told them, ‘Hey, we’re getting out of this mess, we’re going to escape.’ And the Jews said, ‘Okay, but where’s it to that we’re escaping, already?’ ‘To Canaan,’ Moses said. ‘Canaan is our rightful home in case you’ve forgotten it. God spoke to Abraham personally and said, “I promise you the Land of Canaan. You are my number one people what I’ve chosen, and Canaan is the place I’ve set aside for you, for your own forever.” Good. Only nobody read the fine print, which said that to move into our new home, we had to slaughter hundreds of thousands of human beings what were living there at the time.”
“You’re not exaggerating, Mr. Cohen? Wasn’t Canaan kind of a wilderness area that was open for settlement?”
“Hoo boy! You young people today, you’re knowing nothing very much. An advanced civilization, we’re talking about here. Already two thousand years old when the Hebrews invaded it. A lot of our culture comes from Canaan. You believe, darlink, that God told Moses go invade an advanced civilization, pilfer its territory, and kill all its people? Suppose in Westchester you had a nice house, and I stayed there the weekend as your guest, and then years pass and one day I come back and say, ‘God promised me your house.’ You would believe such a cockamamie story? No, you would not. So, okay, I murder you and your kids and your grandmother what’s in a wheelchair and your cat and your dog and your three goldfishes. And I say to the neighbors, ‘It’s my house now, don’t be peeing on my lawn.’ Hoo boy!”
“I guess we got America the same way,” ventured Ellen Cherry. “From the Indians.”
Spike ran his index finger, stubby and liver spotted, along the rim of his dry glass. “Okay, yes,” he said, “but at least John Wayne never said that God promised it to him. He honestly stole it.”
He paused. “I can tell you something?” He paused again, and Ellen Cherry could detect tearwater magnifying the green gooseberries of his eyes. “I can tell you something? Why I changed my birth name? Abu knows this, but no other body. I quote to you from the Old Testament. Joshua ‘carried off all the livestock of these cities,’ meaning the cities of Canaan, ‘but all the people he put to the sword, not sparing anyone who breathed.’ Joshua ‘plundered,’ Joshua ‘burned,’ Joshua massacred,’ Joshua ‘wiped them out,’ Joshua ‘put to death,’ Joshua ‘turned his forces,’ ‘all were taken by storm . . annihilated without mercy and utterly destroyed,’ Joshua ‘subdued,’ Joshua ‘slew,’ Joshua ‘left no survivors.’ In your Christian Bible you will find this nice story of this nice guy Joshua. You think I could go on living when I wear the name of such a man?”
Ellen Cherry was both touched and embarrassed. She reached out and patted the cuff of his canary-and-catsup plaid sport coat.
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what job could you have had?
by sleepy inhi i've just come home from cleaning windows.what an absolutely soul destroying job.. when i think of the things i could have done.. i remmember how my teachers in school used to tell me i would surely go to university and get a good job.i remmember the shock on one teachers face a few years after i left school when i told her i was a window cleaner.. i was also intrested in art and quite good at it.my grandfather who wasn't a witness offered to help me and my brother get good jobs in the art world.. we turned him down.. arrmegeddon was so soon.. anyone else like me ?.
what do you do and what could you have done?
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GinnyTosken
I didn't mean to trivialize Sleepy's feelings by my comments. I understand being angry about the lost years. I certainly think about the what ifs. What if my parents had supported my decision to pursue higher education? What if they'd taught me to be self-disciplined instead of fostering black-and-white thinking and blind obedience? What would I have done? What would I have been?
On the other hand, I've also seen that having parents who encourage higher education and are supportive, both financially and otherwise, is no guarantee of success and happiness. I and my two closest worldly friends from high school all attended Indiana University. My worldly friends both finished their degrees, and one went on to become an M.B.A. much like the one in the Mexico story. He has virtually devoted his life to a corporation for the last 20 years and has never married or had a lasting relationship. Now that he can retire, he longs for a simple life in a cabin with a front porch where he can sit and watch trains.
My other friend graduated only to run off to California and become a waitress. She began taking drugs, had a boyfriend who beat her, and had to live out of her car for awhile. Her father is an attorney and her mother is an art teacher, and they were both horrified. She eventually checked herself into a mental hospital where they determined that she is manic-depressive. She feels cheated and robbed by this mental illness.
Things happen to everyone. We can brood about "what if," or we can accept things as they are. Expressing one's anger is part of coming to acceptance, I think.
If I had finished my degree and pursued a different career, I may not have discovered JW discussion boards or may not have had the time to participate. I enjoy these boards immensely and feel that my life has been enriched by the people I have met and our discussions. At this moment, I feel no regrets. I am happy and content.
I hope that Sleepy and everyone here can compose a life that provides the same joy and contentment.
Ginny