Posts by Gopher

26

From House to House, From Door to Door....

by individuals wife in

jw
friends

i was in the town this morning and saw a little cluster of jws leaving the kingdom hall, clutching their ministry bags, eager to go out into the field service.... well, maybe eager isnt quite the right word.... anyway, i thought to myself - how many people will they convert today?

one, two, a whole family?

the more obvious answer is none at all.

Gopher

Farkel and TweetieBird,

In reply to the point about jealousy:

The word "jealousy" has multiple definitions, here are the first two from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary at http://www.m-w.com

1 a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness

So to work this out, Jehovah would fit the (a) definition, not tolerating any false gods. But if he is a loving God, he would not fit the (b) definition, of being inclined to believe his people are unfaithful.

It's kind of like a good marriage (few and far between???) where you as a marriage mate would (a) not tolerate unfaithfulness, but hopefully also you wouldn't (b) always be suspicious of your mate.

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

15

For you JW's out there. What would you do if ....

by Brutus in

jw
friends

20 yrs have passed, now (2021) and armageddon still had not come.

what would you do or what would you think?.

just curious

Gopher

Watchtower announcing Yahweh's Kingdom
January 1, 2021

Page 3 "Rejoicing in the Spiritual New Order"

Yahweh (formerly known as Jehovah --- sorry Stephanus) keeps his people only slightly in the dark, blinking at them with "spiritual light!" How glad we are for such strobe lights of increasing truth!

We are able to see through the dark and interpret to the world that even though they may SEEM to be enjoying increasing prosperity and better conditions than in the 20th century, unseen to their eyes their doom is sealed!

Why? Well ever since Michael and his angels cast the original serpent, Satan, and his demon angels out of heaven in 1914, they have been waging an unending spiritual warfare against God's people. Oh it's true, most "physical" persecution has crept to a standstill, such as that experienced by Yahweh's people (then known as Jehovah's Witnesses) in Nazi Germany, in Malawi in the 1970's, in Greece up until the 1990's, just to name a few. And the preaching work is opened up in almost every land of the earth, although we still seem to be holding at about 6 million publishers strong. Surely the sifting among God's people continues.

As mankind entered its third millenium following the appearance on earth of God's only Son, mankind braced for exciting changes. What would the new millenium bring? New cures for disease? A stopping of warfare? An end to hunger?

We still await the answers from mankind. We know Yahweh's kingdom will solve these problems in its own way, in its own day.

But the question is, would Armageddon come and bring an end to the old system as we know it, close to the year 2001?

The answer is yes! Spiritually, unseen to human eyes, recent calculations (which we shall reserve until next summer's convention) unmistakably PROVE beyond a SHADOW of a doubt that Michael and his angels SECRETLY invaded the haunts of man's worst enemy, Satan, and his evil demonic hordes, and enchained them and put them into the abyss for the 1,000 years!

Now that we're somewhat into the 1,000 years (although exactly how many years, we cannot say for certain), woe betide this world's leaders who dare oppose God's true organization! Soon, any time now, they will lose their influence and have to "kiss the Son", for God's anger flares up easily.

Yes through the word of their witnessing, the great crowd brings notice that the world's rulers must submit to Yahweh, or maybe someday they will not be allowed by God to continue ruling over their earthly domains!

to be continued............

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

24

Prophecy Blunders

by Brutus in

jw
friends

" (watchtower p. 56, 1894) .

" (watchtower, p. 150, may 15, 1922) .

" (watchtower, jan. 1, 1924, p5) .

Gopher

Wiz,

You wrote,

The God that brought the flood in Noah's day (ya' know the one that killed all those little kids) is the same one that will bring Arm

Wiz, one of the hardest things since I've not been a JW any more is challenging all of my assumptions that I had built up and believed until age 39. Questioning the accuracy of the Bible itself is one of the SCARIEST things ever; one thinks that God is watching with disfavor as you question your core beliefs!

However, didn't God give us a brain? Aren't we supposed to think, evaluate things, check context, see why things are said or are written? Or did God want us to robotically follow him?

You said you want to know the TRUTH on matters, and it seems you're willing to read. It's taken a while for me to come around, but there are some possible holes in the Flood account. Please consider this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8908&site=3#105934

To me, the flood account was (like much of Genesis) written from a human perspective. "The whole world" certainly could reasonably be taken to mean "the whole KNOWN world". Before you automatically dismiss this as terrible, apostate reasoning, think again. Please consider opposite viewpoints. (Or maybe you like what you read in the thread, who knows???)

I invite you to continue dialogue with members of this forum and establish in your mind what seems reasonable, what seems true.

Again as you said, Jesus demonstrated his Father to be a God of almost unending mercy and love. Perhaps later on we'll learn exactly what his purposes are towards earth, but let's not automatically assume that they are what the WT says that they are (an end to almost all mankind, followed by a paradise earth ....). There are differing viewpoints as to whether the Bible even says THAT MUCH. But the overriding principle....God is love, does not jibe with a bloodthirsty God who will wreak vengeance upon 99.9% of mankind, just because they didn't align themselves with God's supposed organization....

So, it's not that the Bible is necessarily false, but a lot of it is misunderstood. (It takes a while to shake the old WT cobwebs out of one's head....I admit, it was very true in my case)

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

63

Thank You Ray Franz.

by Martini in

jw
friends

hello friends,.

in a thread over at witnesses.net entitled "society bracing for law suits" fellow jw's are taking swipes at ray franz.

not too long ago, while i was still under the wt spell i also would have similarily spoken abusively of ray.

Gopher

Wiz,

Thanks again for an honest reply. Our dialogue is starting to get somewhere now!

(My mistake on the previous post--- I now understand you meant that Mr. Franz ruined lives as a writer for the WT Society, and not now. Duh, it took a little while to catch on....)

OK, Mr. Franz was part of the WT machinery for years. Like many of us, he was caught up in it, really believing that despite its flaws, the WT Society in combination with God's Word held the answer, the hope for all humankind.

We cannot begrudge him his background. It is that background, and the inside information he gained as he was promoted through all its levels, that put him in a position where he could write a thorough expose of the WT organization. He alone could show us the inner workings at the very top.

Those who appear to be "kissing ass" really in most cases are just grateful (after perhaps at first being astounded) that someone in his position would write so courageously and so candidly! I trust the candid nature of his work, because of the documentation (photo copies) included, and also because (as a previous poster said) he could have been liable for false or misleading statements, if his work contained any. You know the Society's lawyers combed through COC and ISOCF, looking for nits to pick!

I think the truth of what the WT Society has been UP to all these years is well-established. They are a self-perpetuating publishing house, rarely if ever interested in the welfare of its humblest members. Other evidences of that are well documented in Mr. Franz's books. (You don't need me to tell you, I think you know as well or better than I do)

BTW, if you read Watchtower or Awake (which you haven't for 2 years), I wouldn't say you had a closed mind. I'd say there's something that you're looking for, something to establish. Or you just want to see what they're currently serving as "spiritual food" to their eager followers! In my mind, the more data you can gather about a given topic, even some contradictory data, eventually you do come closer to the truth.

That's what you're trying to accomplish, right? I hope you enjoy this forum! It's got a lot of great topics. Hope to see more of your posts on other topics.

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

63

Thank You Ray Franz.

by Martini in

jw
friends

hello friends,.

in a thread over at witnesses.net entitled "society bracing for law suits" fellow jw's are taking swipes at ray franz.

not too long ago, while i was still under the wt spell i also would have similarily spoken abusively of ray.

Gopher

Thewiz,

Sorry to be following you around on so many posts today, it's just that the stuff you're writing about-- I cannot resist!

Please keep reading ISOCF! (It's quite a lengthy read, I wasn't able to finish it myself. But I did finish COC, it was quite enough for me.)

You said Ray Franz was scapegoated by the headquarters, you are quite correct. I heard lots of things about him that later turned out to be hogwash.... For example, I had heard he was DF'd FROM BETHEL. Not true. He went back to Alabama/Georgia and was an active JW for a while, until they set him up to be DF'd (with that new rule...you cannot eat with a DA'd ex-JW, even though that person was his boss and landlord!)

Since he was lied about and treated so cruelly, we cannot trust anything that the WT Society or its representatives say about him. We only have his own words to go by, and the documents he presents. The documents all looked accurate to me! (Not that the comparison is exactly the same, but you know how the Society's publications point to the candor of the Gospel writers as witnesses to the truth of what they wrote....So it is with Ray Franz.) Ray doesn't seek to glorify himself. Carefully read it again, but with a more open mind, you may see this!

Ray is not out to lie/ruin lives. That's what the WT Society and/or your local JW's WANT you to believe. He doesn't even begrudge people who are happy being JW's the right to stay as JW's. He's only there to bear witness to what he saw, and unburden his conscience about what turns out to be a religion of man-made rules. Truly like Jesus said, it's just another bad tree producing bad fruits, not unlike a lot of other hierarchical / legalistic religions of our times and times gone by.

Whose lives did he ruin? Nobody has a gun pointed to their head forcing them to read or believe what he writes.

But maybe upon further re-reading and consideration, you'll come to see that what he says, sadly, is true. Like Ray, many of us NEVER really wanted to leave JW's. But it seems along the road to paradise, the JW's got lost, and are now grasping at straws in many ways....Wild accusations against their opposers, harsh discipline, and unprovable end-time doctrines (complete with many false ideas like "millions NOW living will never die", circa 1920).

Best wishes as you consider all this, and I appreciate that you do post your thoughts out here!

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

24

Prophecy Blunders

by Brutus in

jw
friends

" (watchtower p. 56, 1894) .

" (watchtower, p. 150, may 15, 1922) .

" (watchtower, jan. 1, 1924, p5) .

Gopher

The wiz,

You asked,

Do you believe that there ever will be a GT or Arm?

Good question, one I've struggled with in the year or so that I've been out of "the troof" (spelling is not correct).

I think we have to go back to square one, deconstruct everything, see whether it is rational or not. There is information available to help get through this process (you might call it deprogramming). This discussion board is full of helpful information (well it's helped me overcome some of my old ways of thinking, and have helped me raise new questions I hadn't encountered before....)

As far as your question, what I've landed on is that the God represented by Jesus (when he came to earth) is far more conciliatory and peaceful then the one presented in the Hebrew Scriptures. 1 John 4:8 says God is love. His love is far deeper than we could ever conjur up, even for our own little children! As we see the decency of people in general (most are not out to harm their neighbors, and most are not really wicked and deserving of immediate destruction as we were told while in the truth), it makes you wonder about the WT Society's solution to all of earth's problems. That is the same solution for everything no matter what....That is, the bloody and violent destruction of 99.9% of all earth's inhabitants. Is that really GOOD news? Is that really in sync with the smiling faces we see on the cover of the magazines?

I'll leave it at that. As you read and discover more, I hope you're open to question ALL of what you had previously been taught (not an easy thing, far easier it is to fall back to what is comfortable), to make sure of all things, hold fast to what is really true and sensible, in accord with the qualities we know God has, rather than the warped fantasies of leaders of a Bible society.

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

26

From House to House, From Door to Door....

by individuals wife in

jw
friends

i was in the town this morning and saw a little cluster of jws leaving the kingdom hall, clutching their ministry bags, eager to go out into the field service.... well, maybe eager isnt quite the right word.... anyway, i thought to myself - how many people will they convert today?

one, two, a whole family?

the more obvious answer is none at all.

Gopher

It's been documented elsewhere, but other Christian groups have grown from very small to much larger than JW's today, largely through what JW's would term "informal witnessing". This is a much more friendly way to be approached rather than cold-calling.

The JW's continue in their door-to-door mainly because they are urged on by the WT Society to do so, because the Society tells them it's the backbone of the Christian ministry, and they are told that it's the way that has its roots in the 1st century. However, it is ineffective, the householders in general don't want it, and the publishers in general (deep down) don't want to do it!

ArgCampeon,

Thanks for posting here. Your views are welcomed, but they will be challenged!! As far as the end being near, you are so intensely into your study and preaching work, you have yourself believing it! How often since the 1840's have minority Christian groups (Bible Students and JW's included) stated "the sky is falling, the sky is falling", when in fact that statement was a lie! The statement "Millions Now Living Will Never Die", made by 1925, was false, based on the idea that the system's end was "just around the corner". I am amazed that the Society still quotes the title of that talk. Sometimes they even have the gall to change the title as if it said "Millions Now Living MAY Never Die". I couldn't believe that when I saw that twist in a Watchtower magazine, oh about 10 years back.

And what about the 1989 Watchtower magazine which stated that "the preaching work will conclude in this century"? (meaning the 20th century) If the Watchtower was right, why are you now going out door to door in the 21st century???

To see a multitude of other examples of failed prophecy, please read the carefully documented thread at http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=10530&site=3

I appreciate that you try to be friendly with people, and I appreciate the sincerity of what you believe. I am just fearful that you're placing an emphasis on the wrong time period.

By the way, this has NOTHING to do with believing or disbelieving Bible prophecy regarding whether there will be last days or not (that's a whole 'nother topic). It has everything to do with examining your own personal beliefs, and whether you should believe everything spouted by the Watchtower Society "lock, stock and barrel". Remember, I quoted above 2 time prophecies that turned out to be way too daring. Any more time prophecies by the Society, and I would say they're being deliberatly misleading!

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

4

Watchtower Study - Sept 2

by hippikon in

and what a joy it is to share in this god-directed harvest work!

(b) why ate gods present-day servants ob-jects of hatred?.

(isaiah 9:3) as joyful workers, then, let us press on in the harvest work!.

Gopher

IW, your comments are exactly right! Opposers marvelling? LOL. Some people may marvel, but surely not the opposers.

Paragraph 15: There'll always be people like "Jim", who are either unaware of what they're about to get into, or else willingly accept a life where all the rules & regulations are set out in front of them, with no real responsibility or thinking involved. For "Jim" and others like him, it'll always be "what does the Society say I should do"? Notice the term "Bible Study" that they said was conducted with him. Yet the main instrument at first was the Creation book, which is so filled with misquotations and pseudo-science (as documented by Norm and others in posts to this forum earlier this year), how could someone be taught "truth" by means of a publication that does not contain the whole truth....Then it was probably on to the "Live Forever" or "Knowledge" publication, with specially selected scriptures to lead you to a pre-ordained conclusion about "truth". No real "Bible" study here, unless "Jim" did it on his own (not likely, he became a JW too quickly to have been doing this very carefully)!!

Paragraph 20 -- an abundant harvest? Maybe in some non-industrialized lands or lands where the Internet is not available to the common folk. Otherwise, the growth is zero! We usually (in the past) would see some statistics to support how "wonderfully" the harvest work was going, but not now, since there are apparently no wonderful statistics, except in certain pockets of the world.

So... No real bible study, and no real recent increases. But don't worry, the end is near.... just keep on doing more more more, you'll get your paradise (right around the corner).

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

40

Hi Again

by tattoogrl333 in

jw
friends

well the elders do not accept me.

i do not fit the mold and nor will i change too.

they asked for a book for me to see the questions answered for baptisim but they wouldn't give it to me because they have to decide if i can join???

Gopher

Wiz,

Welcome to the forum! Feel free to post your ideas, concerns, questions, whatever. It is free-flowing out here, at times it may get a little rough, but hey that's freedom of speech! In here, we can really be ourselves, not like inside the JW organization where you had to try to "put on" that everything was okie-dokie!!!

I have gained a lot in my five months on this board, it's helped me grow past the organization and into a new, freer life. I hope you find it to be the same!

Just put a little thought into your posts, and be ready for an avalanche of response. To quote sports talk show host Jim Rome, "Have a take and do not suck!" Then you'll be fine!

Hope to see more of you out here, Wiz.

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

40

Hi Again

by tattoogrl333 in

jw
friends

well the elders do not accept me.

i do not fit the mold and nor will i change too.

they asked for a book for me to see the questions answered for baptisim but they wouldn't give it to me because they have to decide if i can join???

Gopher

Tattoo Girl,

Welcome back! You were missed!

I hope you won't let this so-called "rejection" get you down. Actually, I'd count it an honor to be rejected by such close-minded elders,,, LOL! I know you feel down, but in the long run you'll see that you've gained some good insight from this experience. (Everybody's heart gets hurt on their way to happiness!)

I remember that you like the lady who studies with you; she'll probably try to convince you that it's still worth studying, so you'll be faced with a choice. Just think it, is it really worth going through all those hoops, trying to follow man-made rules? What for?

Hope you can keep your cool, because you are a cool person! Let us know how things go!!

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)