Gopher

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Posts by Gopher

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  21

  Worship only counts if you base it on faith, not proof of god's existance?

  by AdaMakawee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading an article online, about the upcoming vatican ruling on a shrine in the balkins.

  the shrine is built in a place where people say the virgin mary has been appearing, and people have been going there in the hundreds of thousands sort of like the lourdes thing.

  after the article, which supposes that the pope will rule that this is all from satan and meant to lead people away from the church, there were comments from people regarding the phenomena, the expected ruling, etc.

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  Gopher

  Psacramento, at the line where proof and evidence ceases, that's where faith begins. The Bible describes faith in terms of believing the unseen, and says it takes a special person to have the kind of faith that pleases God.

  If there were solid factual evidence (such as the Catholics looked for in the relics like the Shroud of Turin) for every item of faith, faith would no longer be necessary because the religions would be teaching only facts. But they cannot, because religions deal in the realm of the unseeable and unknowable -- and even in the historically unverifiable.

  It takes faith (and I'm not demeaning anyone who has faith, I'm just stating what my Christian girlfriend tells me) -- and that's what makes religion including Christianity what it is.
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  21

  Worship only counts if you base it on faith, not proof of god's existance?

  by AdaMakawee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading an article online, about the upcoming vatican ruling on a shrine in the balkins.

  the shrine is built in a place where people say the virgin mary has been appearing, and people have been going there in the hundreds of thousands sort of like the lourdes thing.

  after the article, which supposes that the pope will rule that this is all from satan and meant to lead people away from the church, there were comments from people regarding the phenomena, the expected ruling, etc.

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  Gopher

  Narkissos, I have questions about these two ideas you posted:

  : In ordinary speech, you do not cease to believe something because you know it.

  : When people are said to "believe" in God, it doesn't mean they think God exists. It means they rely on him.

  When something is known, such as 2+2 = 4 or the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, no faith / belief is necessary.

  Other ideas are assessments on known things, but are not provable. George W. Bush was the U.S.A. president for 8 years until 1/20/2009, this is fact. Was he one of the worst presidents in history? That is not provable or disprovable.

  Finally there are unprovable things/ideas such as deities and flying spaghetti monsters. People who believe raise what they think is evidence, such as creation and the effect such deity has had on their life. People who don't believe point to general injustice in this world, among other things.

  However, isn't it true that believers really think God exists? That is the essence of belief.

  Non-believers (and I acknowledge I am one) do not know whether he exists, but think the evidence of a God as described by religion (he cares, he takes sides in human disputes, etc.) is unlikely.
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  35

  Depression in the Org.

  by ssn587 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it never seems to be brought up in jah's so wonderful org.

  but depression seems rampant, i can name 7-10 people right now on antidepreswsant drugs.

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  Gopher

  Shamus100,

  When you say "every congregation has this problem", you're right. I can see some JW-defenders rolling their angel eyes at this statement.

  Back in the 80's when I was a ministerial servant in Saint Paul, MN, the C.O. told a meeting of just elders & servants that each congregation in the circuit had at least one clinically depressed member. His next comment is "we can't figure out what's going on".

  I think you have to see it from the outside. Then you can figure it out.
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  9

  The truth about Obama's health care plan

  by keyser soze in

  1. social
  2. current

  hopefully this article will clear up any misinformation that is circulating about so-called "death panels" in obama's health care plan:.

  http://www.theonion.com/content/news/obama_health_care_plan_would_give.

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  Gopher

  Farkel,

  Here are addresses to links for two bills-- one from the House and one from the Senate. I don't know if I can answer the call to provide "all" of them.

  Full text of House Resolution 3200: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

  Full text of Baucus Health Care Bill: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/11382446/Baucus-Health-Care-Bill---Full-Text

  My browser isn't letting me make these addresses clickable.
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  21

  Worship only counts if you base it on faith, not proof of god's existance?

  by AdaMakawee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading an article online, about the upcoming vatican ruling on a shrine in the balkins.

  the shrine is built in a place where people say the virgin mary has been appearing, and people have been going there in the hundreds of thousands sort of like the lourdes thing.

  after the article, which supposes that the pope will rule that this is all from satan and meant to lead people away from the church, there were comments from people regarding the phenomena, the expected ruling, etc.

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  Gopher

  "When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer, superstition ain't the way" - Stevie Wonder
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  50

  I made it!!!

  by purplesofa in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  to fifty!!.

  never dreamed life would be as it is now, .

  there are times i did not think i would make it.

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  Gopher

  Just thought I'd jump back on here to say happy 50th to a very warmhearted and kind person !!! Congrats on your milestone.
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  71

  ex wants to be free to remarry - ugh

  by No Apologies in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, i'm sure i am not the first one to be in this predicament but it sure is a headache, my jw ex called a few days ago, apparently she has met someone (they're not dating of course!

  ) and she wants to me to hand over the golden ticket.

  she wants confirmation either in writing or verbally to a third party, that she is "scripturally free" to remarry.. i have managed for years now to avoid any judicial action and my jw family members still associate with me, but that all could come to a screeching halt if i give her what she wants.. the only bright side is she totally robbed me on the divorce; if she gets married i am at least off the hook for "spousal maintenance", that would mean potentially thousands of dollars in my pocket.... .

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  Gopher

  JW rules tell your family it's okay to associate with you. JW rules say your ex cannot currently remarry.

  Yours is the only case where I can remember saying "hooray for JW rules"!
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  5

  Does Fear of Death make us Religious...herd of "No Athiests in Foxholes?"

  by Witness 007 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during wars it has commonly been said among the soldiers "their are no athiests in foxholes.

  " so these men who may die soon pray to a god they didn't believe in just in case it "helps" them not get hit by a stray bullet or mortar...is this a human fear condition.. other example is people "converting" on the death bed...constantine and oscar wilde {homosexual} comes to mind..

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  Gopher

  There are atheists in foxholes. Let them speak for themselves:

  http://www.ffrf.org/foxholes/

  http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html

  http://www.newsweek.com/id/37501

  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97992274
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  47

  WTS causing more anguish

  by GapingMouth in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i don't really know where to start on my first post; i feel i have so much to say and yet i am so emotionally tired that it is hard to go through it all again in my head.

  but, i do need support and advice and so i will make the effort.. i started having doubts about certain beliefs of the witnesses about 2 years ago and did research since that i now come to the belief there is no god, and witnesses definitely are a cult.. at first it bothered me more on the god issue, but now i am more bothered by the cult issue, mainly because it dictates my life even though i am aware of it.. when i was a child, my mother and father divorced and my mother told me i will live with my father because she was going to die at armageddon being a non witness.

  i think, as well as many other pressures i cant list for fear of a very long post, this was the main pressure that made me get baptized even though i wasn't that happy being a witness.

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  Gopher

  Apologies to Psychotic Parrot, I had a brain fart and got my posters with initials "PP" mixed up. I was thinking of PasswordProtected.

  No need to use obscene language -- that violates posting guideline #3.
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  47

  WTS causing more anguish

  by GapingMouth in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i don't really know where to start on my first post; i feel i have so much to say and yet i am so emotionally tired that it is hard to go through it all again in my head.

  but, i do need support and advice and so i will make the effort.. i started having doubts about certain beliefs of the witnesses about 2 years ago and did research since that i now come to the belief there is no god, and witnesses definitely are a cult.. at first it bothered me more on the god issue, but now i am more bothered by the cult issue, mainly because it dictates my life even though i am aware of it.. when i was a child, my mother and father divorced and my mother told me i will live with my father because she was going to die at armageddon being a non witness.

  i think, as well as many other pressures i cant list for fear of a very long post, this was the main pressure that made me get baptized even though i wasn't that happy being a witness.

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  Gopher

  Threads that turn out like this are part of the reason I do not post here any longer. I was here for years after the board (then known as JWD) helped me to adjust to post-Witness life. I hoped, and I think partially succeeded, to help people cope with the turmoil and stresses that arise upon taking action after learning that the JW religion is a snare and a racket.

  It used to be that people could get real help, and I believe some actually still do. However, there are those who (like Parrot, Metatron and J. Dough on this thread) think they must witness about how much better someone exiting the JW's would be if only they followed THEIR particular belief system. What is it, insecurity, that apparently causes people to break into a thread due to a fear that a new poster like Gaping Mouth might come to think differently than they do? Maybe there is a measure of good intention, but folks -- atheism vs. belief is NOT what this thread is about.

  I have become atheist, but (as a rule) would only post on threads where that was the topic.

  Gaping Mouth may or may not come back to this forum after 2 posts, who knows. But he specifically asked that the thread not be hijacked, meaning that it should not devolve into something unrelated to his major concern which he clearly expressed in the original post. His wish should have been granted, especially if you wanted to see him here as a regular poster.

  To Gaping Mouth, I wish you the best on your journey as you adapt to independent, rational thinking while trying to balance that against the pressures of being married into the JW's and trying to preserve your relationship with your new daughter.

  To posters who are reasonably trying to help new ones, keep at it as long as you have the heart to do so.