Posts by Gordy

8

Reasoning with JWs using Galatians

by R.F. in

one of the final death blows to my beliefs of wt doctrine was really pondering over galatians 1. paul was very clear and strong in saying that there should be no gospel preached than what they taught, and they taught the simple message of jesus christ coming to earth, dying in our behalf, and his resurrection.

the gospel that jehovah's witnesses preach is obviously very different.

they've put in elements that are no where to be taught by early christian leaders.. so my question is.... how many of you have used this reasoning with the witnesses?

Gordy

It was Galations and Romans that started me thinking that the WT was teaching the wrong Gospel.

Its just didn't fit with what the scriptures where telling me.

78

Have you ever faked a service report?

by Orgull in

it's only my third day here so, go easy on me.

lol.. seriously, my new doubts have made it harder and harder to go in service.

a few months ago, when a new month rolled around, i realized that i hadn't actually gone in service at all the previous month.

Gordy

Every month, I never kept a record, so usually just guessed about hours and number magazines placed.

Knew brothers who put reports in for 20 or so hours. Knowing that they never even did half that. They were ones who usually wanted to look good and climb the corporate ladder.

Often heard Service Overseer telling elderly sisters, who may not have been able to get out, to just put a couple of hours down.

21

JWS and Ex JWS....Is the Mark of the Beast taught in the Hall?

by A-Team in

a few jws were stunned when i pointed out revelation 13 to them, they said they have never heard such a thing about the mark of teh beast or it's effects.

im beginning to wonder if its even taught in the hall.

Gordy

from what I understand, this same ID Card Technology has already been approved in Mexico, Canada and MAY HAVE been approved in some EUropean COuntries as well.

The European Union is pushing to have all passports within the Union standardised. That they should carry biometric information about the person.

38

so let me get this straight

by 4digitcode in

i have been on here for only the past 3 days or so....so i don't really know how it goes.. this is an 'apostate' site right?.

so today i've learned that there is just the ol' regular apostate and an 'active' apostate.. but are there actually active witnesses on this site as well??.

because i just saw a topic about someone asking for advice on how to do a talk?.

Gordy

There are many many ex-witnessses here and there are many witnesses here too. We have all kinds - from atheists to born agains. It makes for delightful conversation and pleasant company.

This is what makes this forum so good. So many other forums are either dominated by one or the other group. It has been one of the greatest helps to me when I left the JW's, after being one for 30 years.

8

30 minute Sunday talks??

by still_in74 in

ok maybe somebody else can validate this for me as it has been "officially" announced yet, or at least not in my kh.

apparently also starting in the new year along with public/private watchtowers the sunday public talk will be reduced to 30 minutes from the current 45 minutes while not lengthening the wt study.

i hear the reasoning is to give the "brothers" more time to associate after the meeting.

Gordy

Funnily at the church I attend the Pastor last Sunday said he was going to be shortening his sermons and service. So we could finish 15 minutes earlier and have some fellowship. Tea and coffee will be available.

27

Comment by Greg Stafford to a Question

by Gordy in

the following is a comment from greg stafford.

if anyone has already posted this i apologise.

did do a search but couldn't find it.. http://www.elihubooks.com/lampstand/watchtower.htm.

Gordy

Greg Stafford has written another book due out August 2007 entitled:

"Jehovah's Witnesses Defended - An Answer to Scholars and Critics" 3rd edition.

http://www.elihubooks.com/

27

Comment by Greg Stafford to a Question

by Gordy in

the following is a comment from greg stafford.

if anyone has already posted this i apologise.

did do a search but couldn't find it.. http://www.elihubooks.com/lampstand/watchtower.htm.

Gordy

The following is a comment from Greg Stafford. If anyone has already posted this I apologise. did do a search but couldn't find it.
http://www.elihubooks.com/lampstand/watchtower.htm
If you believe Jehovah’s Witnesses who are associated with the Watchtower Society promote certain false teachings, why do you associate yourself with them? (July 5, 2007)
Because I, too, am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I bear witness to the truth that Jehovah is the true God and that he is merciful, just, and allows his creatures to decide for themselves whether or not to obey or to disobey him. I also bear witness with Jehovah’s Witnesses associated with the Watchtower Society that “the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14), that “there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell” (2 Peter 3:13), and other biblical teachings that collectively associate us together more than certain false teachings separate us apart. However, the false teachings are serious, serious enough that critical ‘divisions exist among us’ (1 Corinthians 11:18).
Yet, the biblical model for the congregations of God shows that “there must also be sects among you, that the persons approved may also become manifest among you” (1 Corinthians 11:19). Thus, the divisions or “sects” brought about by those who “teach different doctrine” than what we find in the Bible (1 Timothy 1:3) will in the end make manifest those whom God approves. But since the majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses today are loyal to the teachings of the Watchtower Society, even if they may not be supported by Scripture, what is a Jehovah’s Witness who rejects the false teachings of other Witnesses to do in light of the shared beliefs mentioned above?
I believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses today are like the congregations of God described in Revelation Chapters 2-3. In these congregations there are some who “cannot bear bad men” and who “put to the test those who say they are apostles” or those who make equivalent claims (Revelation 2:2), there are some who are “holding fast the teaching of Balaam” (Revelation 2:14), some who are “holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nicolaus” (Revelation 2:15), and some who “tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess” (Revelation 2:20).
I believe these congregations are at a point now where critical decisions must be made, and made soon, or a new direction will have to be taken by those not responsible for what is published in the literature of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and other associated publishing agencies. If radical internal changes are not made that show themselves in the teachings, policies, and in the congregational affairs of Jehovah’s Witnesses earth-wide, then it may be necessary for those who are not interested in following the teachings of men apart from the words of God to completely separate from the Jehovah’s Witnesses of the Watchtower Society.
Such a radical separation may be necessary in order to help keep Jehovah’s name from continuing to be associated with teachings that are not supported by any good reasons found in the Bible, the written source of Jehovah’s teachings for mankind. But just as Jesus himself gave “that woman Jezebel” “time to repent” (Revelation 2:20, 21), so do those who “cannot bear bad men” give those who “say they are apostles” time to prove who they are, or time to “repent.”
To understand the present situation better, it is good to consider further the pattern of Jehovah’s worshippers preserved for us in the Bible, which contains other possible parallels between the people of God in ancient times and what we see happening today where Jehovah’s Witnesses are concerned. Probably the best account to explore in relation to your question is what we are told occurred with respect to God’s people of old, the Israelites, after Moses returned from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets written on by Jehovah God’s “finger”:
Exodus 31:18-32:1, 4-5, 9-14 (NWT)

Now as soon as [Jehovah God] he had finished speaking with [Moses] on Mount Si´nai he proceeded to give Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone written on by God’s finger. Meanwhile the people got to see that Moses was taking a long time about coming down from the mountain. So the people congregated themselves about Aaron and said to him: “Get up, make for us a god who will go ahead of us, because as regards this Moses, the man who led us up out of the land of Egypt, we certainly do not know what has happened to him.” … Then he took [the gold] from their hands, and he formed it with a graving tool and proceeded to make it into a molten statue of a calf. And they began to say: “This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.” When Aaron got to see this, he went to building an altar before it. Finally Aaron called out and said: “There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.” … And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have looked at this people and here it is a stiff-necked people. So now let me be, that my anger may blaze against them and I may exterminate them, and let me make you into a great nation.” And Moses proceeded to soften the face of Jehovah his God and to say: “Why, O Jehovah, should your anger blaze against your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a strong hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent he brought them out in order to kill them among the mountains and to exterminate them from the surface of the ground’? Turn from your burning anger and feel regret over the evil against your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac and Israel your servants, to whom you swore by yourself, in that you said to them, ‘I shall multiply YOUR seed like the stars of the heavens, and all this land that I have designated I shall give to YOUR seed, that they may indeed take possession of it to time indefinite.’” And Jehovah began to feel regret over the evil that he had spoken of doing to his people. [Underline added.]
Jehovah was righteous in deciding to “exterminate” the people whom he had chosen and whom he had delivered from slavery through the Red Sea and concerning whom he had made promises through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They deserved his wrath because they had acted in a way that, in light of all that he had done and in view of all that they had received from his hand was not acceptable under any circumstance, unless Jehovah chose to accept it. But Jehovah could have, and would have made a new nation out of Moses (Exodus 32:10). Yet, Moses ‘softened the face of Jehovah his God’ and caused Jehovah to turn from his righteous anger. So, too, can Christians today act like Moses and think less of themselves and more about Jehovah and how the people of God, those who bear his name, affect his reputation by the things they do in that name. Even though they are committing gross sin by their false teachings, if God is willing they can be shown mercy and in the process God’s name and reputation can be glorified by the actions of a few, on behalf of the many (compare John 15:9-13).
Again, Moses cared more about Jehovah’s name and glory, even among the nations who did not worship him, than he did about his own glory or the honor that would come from being “the father of many nations” (compare Romans 4:18). He put Jehovah’s reputation above his own and even suggested an alternative to the great offer that Jehovah extended to him. Jehovah accepted Moses’ suggestion as a just alternative to destroying those who deserved it, and so he spared his people for the reasons Moses gave and at the same time he acted undeservingly merciful toward his people.
Today many Jehovah’s Witnesses, in particular those loyal to the Watchtower Society over and above the teachings of the Bible, are like the Israelites who put the worship of the golden calf above their loyalty to the God who had delivered them from Egyptian bondage. Instead of waiting for Moses to return from the mountain, they began to congregate together around false beliefs that even led Aaron astray.
Today many Jehovah’s Witnesses who require others to believe in uncertain if not highly suspect chronologies (such as those relating to 1914), who require that others accept certain applications of Bible prophecies (such as the date the heavenly resurrection began [1918]), or who maintain that we must accept that certain numbers are literal when they could be either literal or figurative in books like Revelation (such as 144,000 [Revelation 7:4; 14:1]) in order to be accepted as a Christian, are misleading the congregations of God just like those in congregations of “the Lord’s day” were misleading others with “the teaching of Balaam,” who was involved in ‘putting a stumbling block before the sons of Israel’ (Revelation 2:14).
Today many Jehovah’s Witnesses go beyond what the Bible teaches about things like the use of blood, and they wrongly require that others refuse potentially life-saving treatment involving the use of blood as blood and not merely as food (which is the most that the Bible could be said to clearly teach against) in order to be considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. These Witnesses are like those “holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nicolaus” (Revelation 2:15), which sect was excessively rigid and went beyond what was required to please God and Christ (see “The Congregations of God During ‘the Lord’s Day,’” IN MEDIO, June 1, 2007, under the discussion of Rev 2:6).
Today, many Jehovah’s Witnesses, specifically those responsible for what is produced in literature that is published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and associated agencies “tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess” (Revelation 2:20) because they do not remove the source of the sickness that is ailing the congregations of God. Therefore, if “she is not willing to repent” then Jesus Christ will “throw her into a sickbed, and those committing fornication with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds” (Revelation 2:21-22).
In the meantime, those Jehovah’s Witnesses who “cannot bear bad men” must put Jehovah’s name and glory above our own reputation but without compromising our love of the truth by ‘tolerating’ false beliefs (Revelation 2:20). We can do that by being open and honest with those who call themselves by Jehovah’s name, but who ‘teach commands of men as the fear of Jehovah’ (Isaiah 29:13). We can do that by ‘not being afraid of the things we are about to suffer’ (Revelation 2:10). We can do that by listening to “what the spirit says to the congregations” through the pages of the Bible (Revelation 2:7; 3:4) over and above what it might say through the pages of some other book or writing of men. We can do that by ‘keeping the word of Jesus and not proving false to his name’ (Revelation 3:8).
Remember, I and the other Jehovah’s Witnesses who “put to the test those who say they are apostles” do so out of love, and not to cause division or to impede the work of God. We are anxious to preach “the good new of the kingdom … in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” (Matthew 24:14), and to “make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit” (Matthew 28:19). But we are at “war” (Revelation 12:17), and the last persons we want to fight are our own brothers and sisters in the faith, unless we are forced to do so out of love and loyalty to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, above all.-Acts 15:24; John 18:37; Galatians 2:4-5; Titus 1:10-16; Jude 4.
Greg Stafford
“Upon the Lampstand,” July 5, 2007.

17

The most powerful thing about apostate literature is...

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

...that is drives a wedge between you and other witnesses as soon as you read it.

there is fear of discussing it openly, and even if you are wanting to try to argue against apostate ideas there is simply no outlet for such open discussions.

you are left guessing what other witnesses know, and how much apostate information they have been exposed too.

Gordy

that is drives a wedge between you and other Witnesses as soon as you read it. There is fear of discussing it openly, and even if you are wanting to try to argue against apostate ideas there is simply no outlet for such open discussions. You are left guessing what other Witnesses know, and how much apostate information they have been exposed too. What a horrible situaton that is, especially when it concerns people you care about who are thoughtful and intelligent - but you simply can't discuss this with them.

Its another example of their control over members. Like any totalitarian government, you make it a crime to speak against them. You do not know whether the person you confide your thoughts with maybe an agent for them. Will your own family denounce you?

Then you feel even worse because you have to do things in secret. The quick look at apostate sites, gathering information. Lurking on forums like JWD, then anonymously posting.

At the same time attending meetings, assemblies, conventions, going on field service. Maybe giving talks, knowing what you are saying is a load of lies. Sitting in a Watchtower study, after having read one of Blondies "Comments you won't hear..."

Then one day it happens. You realise you can't go on anymore believing. You eyes have been opened. You realise the talk you have just listen to is the same one you have heard umpteen times before. You realise what a load of rubbish it was. You know that what the brother said was changed about 5-10 years ago, it is now the opposite of what it was back then. You wonder if you are the only one who noticed.

You leave the Kingdom Hall that night knowing you will never return. .................Thats what happened to me.

Just a little aside

The above quote speaks about when you learn about "apostate" things etc, and you can't discuss them with any one.

I used to find it strange in the years I was a JW that it was very very rare to even have a discussion about WT teachings. The WT said that when you are togethr with other JW's say having a meal etc, you should talk about "spiritual" things. But when we used to have brothers/sisters for a meal. It was the last thing if ever we talked about. No one ever said "Did you see that point in the WT magazine/study book about XXX What do you think about it?"

Because no one could turn round and say they didn't agree with it. You couldn't say "Well I think the WT was, wrong or I don't agree, on that point."

This would also be seen as questioning the organisation.

23

Marrying a "worldly" man...

by veronica_mars in

it's funny, cause i never thought i would do this.. not that i am engaged, or even dating anyone for that matter... but i *could*.. it's such a foreign concept to me... dating someone who isn't a witness.

who doesn't understand all this.. i don't know why, but it does kinda scare me.

i think that there are certain jw teachings that i will carry with me for a long time... and what if he doesn't get it?!.

Gordy

I'm a 56 yr old guy ex JW DA'd. Have been separated from wife for 10 years, may get round to actual divorce sometime.

Yet in that time the idea of "dating" a "worldly" (hate that word) woman has hardly crossed my mind.

I sometimes do think its something locked in my mind after 30 years as a JW. That I am still married, therefore not free to date. Or is it that I messed up first time and don't want to take the chance again.

Does that seem strange?

I have two sons at home 19, 27, though the 27 yr is moving out now. I have another son 31, who lives close by with his wife. But though I love them all, their lives are different to mine. They have their own friends and interests etc.

Its not that I don't want a female friend, partner, future wife. I don't just mean for the sexual side of things either. But for (without sounding trite) the companionship, to have someone to talk to. to go out with. to enjoy things with.

6

Length Of WTS Indoctrination Program

by Sunspot in

i posted this on another board and got zero replies:.

but i was curious.

when i was in the wts, we were instructed to only allow a person to "study" the wts bible-aids for a period of six months.

Gordy

Yes, I recall when the "Knowledge" book was brought out. It was all about you study this book 6 months with a person. If they hadn't decided by then, end the study.

But likewise mentioned above I have contact with people who have had studies. They say they did the "Knowledge" book, then another book, then another, then another. I recently met a lady who had been "studying" with two JW pioneers for nearly 2 years. Started with the "Knowledge" book, then a couple more, and was just coming to the end of "What Does Bible Really Teach?".

I got the feeling the two pioneers were just doing it for the hours etc. Though the study has stopped the two pioneers still call round for "a chat".