Posts by Chalam

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, theseworshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Stephen

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

Chalam

Conditional immortality and annihilationism are minority views amongst "protestants".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefs

Eternal torment view [ edit ]

One historic Protestant view of hell is expressed in the Westminster Confession (1646):

"but the wicked, who know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power. " (Chapter XXXIII, Of the Last Judgment)

According to the Alliance Commission on Unity & Truth among Evangelicals (ACUTE) the majority of Protestants have held that hell will be a place of unending conscious torment, both physical and spiritual, [25] although some recent writers such as Anglo-Catholic C. S. Lewis [86] and J.P. Moreland [87] have cast hell in terms of "eternal separation" from God. Certain biblical texts have led some theologians [who?] to the conclusion that punishment in hell, though eternal and irrevocable, will be proportional to the deeds of each soul (e.g., Matthew 10:15 , Luke 12:46-48 ). [88]

Another area of debate is the fate of the unevangelized (i.e.,those who have never had an opportunity to hear the Christian gospel), those who die in infancy, and the mentally disabled. According to ACUTE some Protestants [who?] agree withAugustine that people in these categories will be damned to hell for original sin, while others believe that God will make an exception in these cases. [25]

View of conditional immortality and annihilationism [ edit ]

A minority of Protestants believe in the doctrine of conditional immortality, [89] which teaches that those sent to hell will not experience eternal conscious punishment, but instead will be extinguished or annihilated after a period of "limited conscious punishment". [19] [90]

Prominent evangelical theologians who have adopted conditionalist beliefs include John Wenham, Edward Fudge, Clark Pinnock and John Stott (although the last has described himself as an "agnostic" on the issue of annihilationism). [25] Conditionalists typically reject the traditional concept of the immortality of the soul.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians teach the annihilationist viewpoint.

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

Chalam

23 Minutes In Hell: One Man's Story About What He Saw, Heard, and Felt in that Place of Torment

23 Questions About Hell: DVD included...with Bill's amazing story and the lessons he learned from his visit to hell

Hell: Separate Truth from Fiction and Get Your Toughest Questions Answered

Plenty of other accounts of Hell on Amazon etc.

All the best,

Stephen

154

How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??

by jam in

jw
friends

it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.

"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.

"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".

Chalam

Jesus spoke clearly of the existence of Hell and what it is.

Mark 9:42-48

Temptations to Sin

42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Revelation 20:9-15

9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, butfire came down from heaven [a] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Judgement Before the Great White Throne

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books,according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Luke 16:19-31

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not do so, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

OK, some common questions/objections to Hell.

1. God is loving, forgiving and merciful. He won't send anyone to eternal torment.

Yes but God is also Holy, righteous and the judge. To major on His love does not negate his wrath etc. In fact, His love supports it.

2. The punishment is too severe.

This arguement appeals to our carnal thinking. However, we are neither Holy, righteous, omniscient (all knowing), Creator or in any other way qualified to judge. To do so it to exalt ourselves to judge God.

3. The Second Death and the rich man and Lazarus are parabolic.

Concerning the latter, what parable has actual persons named i.e. Lazarus, Abraham, Moses etc? Additionally, is heaven a literal place?

4. The way is too narrow.

Jesus is the only way. His righteousness is attributed to those who believe. It is not the efforts of self righteousness but rather the faith in the Righteous One.

5. What about those who have never hear of Jesus or are born into other religions?

The mandate to the church is to tell everyone about the way to life. It is a question firstly for believers if they are spreading the gospel as Christ directed.

I believe God is just and to not give anyone a chance to repent would be unjust. The bible says that Christ preached the gospel to the dead so they might live 1 Peter 4:5-7 1 Peter 3:18-20

6. I'm a good person.

That is from our perspective. From the judge's perspective (who is without sin), we have all sinned and cannot enter into His Kingdom. The judgement is not a weighing scales, the bad is put on one side and the good on the other. No, we are guilty as charged. Jesus is ready to pay our fines/do the time. He has done it already. All we have to do it believe and ask Him to do it.

7. The dead are conscious of nothing. Those who enter the Lake Of Fire soon cease to exisit.

Firstly, that is not what the text says (see above). Also, why would the gospel be preached to dead according to Peter if they we "conscious of nothing" and not able to respond?

According to Ecc 9:5-6 the dead are in fact not conscious of anthing and "no more share in all that is done under the sun" i.e. here on earth.

In summation.

Hebrews 10:29-31

29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Ezekiel 18:31-32

31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

Hebrews 4:2-7

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest’”,

although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,

“They shall not enter my rest.”

6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today”, saying through David so long afterwards, in the words already quoted,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

Every blessing of life!

Stephen

229

Should We Worship Jesus?

by Perry in

there is one lord, one faith, one baptism.. jehovah and jesus are also both spoken of as savior.

this is true because even though there are two personalities, and jesus also possesses a human body, they both also share the same substance or essence of god.

this is similar to my son who shares 50% of my essence in dna.

Chalam

"Should We Worship Jesus?"

According to the the original Greek scripture, absolutely!

Take a look, the exact same word used in all these verses whether worshipping "God" or "Jesus".

Only the NWT renders proskyneo differently ("worship" or "obeisance"), depending on the object

Blessings,

Stephen

4

Speaking their native language...

by Chalam in

hello jwners,.

i noticed there were a large number of people dressed in black making their way up the street where i live this morning.. either there was a funeral or else it was our turn to receive field service?

i guessed probably the latter.

Chalam

Thanks Chariklo :)

" About accessing the Father through the Spirit...how would you feel if I suggested we pray to the Father through Christ, in the Spirit?

Does that sit well with you?"

Yes, of course, no problem! In one sense, the Holy Spirit is Jesus. See John 14 for example.

John 14:15-20

English Standard Version (ESV)

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Also here

Galatians 4:6

English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Or indeed, Ephesians 2. We enter into the presence of the Father through Christ and the Holy Spirit, same difference.

Here's the finaly thing to note, the Spirit of the Son is one and the same Spirit of the Father :)

Romans 8:14-16

English Standard Version (ESV)

14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Blessings in Christ,

Stephen

20

By what name should Christ's followers be known?

by The Searcher in

at isaiah 43:12, jehovah said to his fleshly nation of israel, "you are my witnesses.

" after christ's death, the literal jewish nation was cast off as god's chosen people, (matt.

21:43) and jehovah now allowed gentiles to join those jews who accepted christ as the messiah, to become part of the 'israel of god'.

Chalam

The clue is in the title "By what name should Christ's followers be known?"!

Stephen

229

Should We Worship Jesus?

by Perry in

there is one lord, one faith, one baptism.. jehovah and jesus are also both spoken of as savior.

this is true because even though there are two personalities, and jesus also possesses a human body, they both also share the same substance or essence of god.

this is similar to my son who shares 50% of my essence in dna.

Chalam

According to Paul's words in 1 Timothy 1, it is possible to shipwreck one's faith.

Hello Tammy, some interesting points about the "spiritual body"!

Let us keep in mind the words of Christ about his own resurrection body.

Luke 24:37-39

English Standard Version (ESV)

37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

I only reinforce the point because the WT teaches against it.

Blessings in Christ,

Stephen xx

4

Speaking their native language...

by Chalam in

hello jwners,.

i noticed there were a large number of people dressed in black making their way up the street where i live this morning.. either there was a funeral or else it was our turn to receive field service?

i guessed probably the latter.

Chalam

Hello JWNers,

It's been a while!

I noticed there were a large number of people dressed in black making their way up the street where I live this morning.

Either there was a funeral or else it was our turn to receive field service? I guessed probably the latter. A pre-Christmas campaign beginning this Dec 1st.

I said a quick prayer and left it in the hands of Dad to see if I should speak to them. I have wasted enough time and effort in the past trying on my own and I can do nothing by myself. As it is, the JWs often pass my door as they do not like my message.

As it was, the door bell did rang and sure enough, two older gentlemen were smartly dressed in their grey and black attire with broad smiles.

They asked me about eternal life and I soon noted the familiar print of the WT in hand.

He took me to Ephesians 2 and started speaking about having been dead in our sins and made alive.

We soon started a discussion regarding the Holy Spirit and being "born from above, born again, a new creation" and such.

He told me all this happens at the moment of belief. I was a little suprised as JWs do not believe in being born again and having the Spirit come and live inside them. I asked them to clarify exactly what happens when one believes? Once again, I was suprised what I was hearing and thus I genuinely because confused as to where these evangelists had come from. Momentarily, forgetting the WT print I seen I started to think maybe they we Mormons or something else?

However, I soon remembered and I took them to John 6, verses 53 and 54 where Jesus taks about the life in you. He agreed with the scriptures and told me they had life?! However, I pointed out that clearly Jesus said unless you drink the wine and eat the break you have no life. I told them they had no life according to Jesus' words as they pass the emblems on. They told me it was for the annointed and they were "other sheep". I told them clearly Paul went to the other sheep, the Gentiles "first the Jew and then the Gentile".

They soon left to "save" some others. I warned them to make sure they preach the correct gospel, and that according to Gal 1 Paul says anyone preaching another gospel is doubly cursed :(

So, all in all, familiar well trod paths.

As I contemplated this after they left, I remembered that when I woke up I was praying about an issue and the Spirit said Ephesians 2:18. I looked it up

Ephesians 2:18

English Standard Version (ESV)

18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

It made no sense at the time regarding what I was asking. However, it makes complete sense now and I totally missed it! It answers every question that was raised and speaks on each topic of discussion, as does the whole chapter.

We both (Jew and Gentile) access the Father through the Spirit. No other access!

We are made alive with Christ.

We (the Gentiles) were formerly separated but now we are brought near through the blood of Christ.

Jesus breaks down the wall between Jew and Gentile and brings us both peace. We access the Father throught the Spirit, not an orginisation, or by association with any other believer.

Anyhow, I am sure they had something to talk about and I had left them with food for thought. However, I should have been more attentive and gone straight to verse 18.

Hope you are all doing well :)

Blessings,

Stephen