i recently got hold of the book the catholic answer to the jehovah's witnesses (louise d'angelo, maryheart catholic information center, meriden, connecticut, 1981).
it's a pretty critique of the jws in many parts, especially on the topic of "jws and false predictions".
with regard to "the generation of 1914" it said:.
Room 215,
I agree that the 1914 calculation drill is somewhat being downplayed, but the Society never misses a chance to say over and over again that Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE, and that 1914 was the year Jesus returned in current publications. Could it be that the Society wants to retain those doctrines, while at the same time desire that JWs not bother with how those dates were arrived at?
i had this thought while reading the co visit thread, and decided to make it a separate topic.. how much longer can they keep beating the slaves before there is a rebellion?
it is obvious that the trickle of people that are leaving is growing, and growing enough to make them worried.
at some point it may become a flood.
LeslieV,
There is also something else. Why is it that seemingly intelligent people have been sucked into the JW religion? Sure there are a lot of people who've suffered abuse there, a lot of people who get some kick from being 'special', or made so at the KH: the love bombing, the attention, everything. But the JW religion also attracts people who seem to be searching for meaning, people who have questions about the bible, those raised by Christian parents and have found holes in the explanations offered by the Church; they begin to ask questions, and Witnesses seem to have all the answers. Where I lived, there is a disproportionate number of bright students at the university who're witnesses. They seem to find some kindred spirits amongst the witnesses. Druing my study, my conductor and I and others would visit libraries and do 'research'. It all looked real. But none of these have been exposed to outside information. And access to the Internet is expensive. My thinking is, like the manner of most 'cults', you don't really understand what JW is all about until you're in. And apostates, those who have broken free form Watchtower chains, and willing to help, should devise some other methods in addition to the iNet offensive.
Metraton: Anybody who is anybody in this book publishing company are criminals by the standards of most of the rest of the world.True. The other day, I spoke with Ciro Aucilino of (Brooklyn?) Bethel. I told him I'm a brother trying to find out information about the Society and the UN, and the talk he gave, the one in which he was drawing strings around the September 11 attacks, the one on the Internet (on Randy's site). He was almost screaming at first. He wanted to know how I got his number (I couldn't tell I got it from this site; I think it was AlanF who supplied the number). Then he didn't want to answer the questions but admitted: yes he worked with Lloyd Barry; and the UN, it's like "magazines on a rack" (he kept repeating this expression)..."magazines on a rack", like at the kingdom hall. I got the impression he was trying to shake me off, then he started lying. I asked pointed questions, and this man, a brother sitting at Bethel, JW holy land, was lying away. It was more than something criminal; outright lying has become part of theocratic war strategy. I was then thinking; there are regular people out there who would keep quiet rather than tell a lie, and here, he was telling a lie about what was common knowledge, then giving me a talk about integrity and apostates. And he's an official of the watchtower; I wonder how many lies he would have told; it seemed to be business as usual.
i had this thought while reading the co visit thread, and decided to make it a separate topic.. how much longer can they keep beating the slaves before there is a rebellion?
it is obvious that the trickle of people that are leaving is growing, and growing enough to make them worried.
at some point it may become a flood.
BluesBrother,
your comments are noted. But; how do you define the commitment you speak about? How is it manifested, even by the written JW code? The other day, a brother told of time spen tin field service with an elder. They were on magazine runs. Brother Elder took the lead; he was greeting friends, bantering, shuffling; then it was time for coffee, then it started raining. He called a friend over for coffee, they banter and talk about everything. At the end, he recorded 2 hours plus 35 mins. They'd done less that 15 minutes of quality talk. There's little mistake about it, witnesses are doing less and less in field service, and even by their standards, that's a measure of commitment. The Org will last for many years; many, but the direction it's moving seems unmistakable, and those at the helm of affairs know it. There's something unsettling about it all; may be it's different where you live. There's something happening at the Watchtower; there's some controlled panic in the current conduct of business.
There are worse things. Why would JWs not do what is right without some form of minitoring. What I see with my generation is the willigness to play around rules, the dance at the border of reproof/disfellowshipping. There is a slackening that runs contrary to commitment.
if it was'nt for the internet i would still be stuck in the endless cycle of drone like meeting attendance and field service.
(technically i'm still in but not for long) i'm really glad that some ex-jws took the time to speak about the real truth.
for the longest time i always thought that what i was taught was correct, i never even felt the need to question it or validate it with actual facts.
Leander,
I think we have some bits in common. About two years ago, having full access to the iNet at work, I was experimenting with search engines. Then I typed 'Jehovah', and 'Jehovah's Witnesses'; my life hasn't been the same since then. The first site I hit was a site critical of Jehovah's Witnesses (I don't presently remember the name). There were many of them, and I remember getting upset and logging off - I knew I was doing something wrong. That day, I couldn't attend the meeting: how would I shake hands with the brothers and look them in the face: I was defiled. But I was hooked. I didn't visit those demonic sites again, but found the generally mild Witnesses.net site. Ha! Was the site good? There was a bunch there; I lurked for months. I was impressed that all the posters were active witnesses; or so I thought. I would print spiritually upbuilding discussions and share with a trusted friend...
That was before my world started to fall apart. Two things: there was a lady at the site; very outspoken. I felt she was irreverent; she would criticize establiched positions as taught by the Society; and she was still attending meetings. Quite a number at the site knew her; her screen name was her real name. Her real name was Lisa Davies... Then enter a man called Friend (who knows Friend? Where is Friend?) and his discussion entitled "Question About Blood" (or something to that effect). It was a long discussion. A man with the handle Bobcarl tried to derail the thread. Friend was convinced of his position. And so the thread ran into hundreds of pages (I still have a copy saved on Word; about 144 pages of discussion in small characters). The thread lasted for months. Someone was saying things about a question I'd been asking the elder brother who studied with me just three years before; and he was saying it articulately.
What was spectacular about Friend was that he wrote like someone from the Society; so that as you read his comments, it sounded like Watchtower material. It was then that I began to see that it was humans writing the material we read on Sundays. My conductor had convinced me that the writers, memebers of the Governing Body did everything they did under Holy Spirit influence. And here was Friend, writing like them and knocking off their arguments. Friend's thread ended with a whimper; the foundations of my faith was shaken; and I
continued my reading of things on the iNet...
Today I still attend meetings; I'm planning my exit. I still do some bits; give talks, refuse some... Weeks ago a friend started a rumour about me being an apostate. Some prominent elders came to my defence. The rumour's almost dead; a battle won...When I do what I have to do, they will disfellowship me. That's inevitable. I know my days within the Watchtower are numbered... The Internet has been good.
i'd like to make a few points which i know i will be eaten alive for, but here goes...... is there really a devil?.
history of religion has always believed in the devil, but has portrayed him in different lights....he himself transforms into an angel of light, making something that is evil seem innocent and fun.
his best ploy: having people believe he don't exist...this is to his own advantage.. he is a malignant enemy of god and man!
Okay now Violet. I know it's the end of the month and you haven't been out in Service. How do you count time, like the one spent on this thread? Do not misunderstand my reason for asking, because, I, like yourself, am very concerned about being truthful about all things, and fulfilling all righteousness... so there goes... close to month's end, do some preaching on Simon's board, read the posts, slowly, read again, do reply, type, carefully, slowly... count time... report time. How does one honestly count time?
i'd like to make a few points which i know i will be eaten alive for, but here goes...... is there really a devil?.
history of religion has always believed in the devil, but has portrayed him in different lights....he himself transforms into an angel of light, making something that is evil seem innocent and fun.
his best ploy: having people believe he don't exist...this is to his own advantage.. he is a malignant enemy of god and man!
Violet,
sometimes interesting, that Public Talk. Today I didn't attend the meeting, because the Talk is one I've heard several times before, and it's still the same old outline. Now lets take a closer look at this one.
His best ploy: having people believe he don't exist...this is to his own advantage.Like you're talking about the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses here?John 8:44 - Manslayer when he began, didn't stand fast in the truth. - We are reminded that Satan used to be in the truth, one of Jehovah's servants
Satan has misapplied scripture to his own advantage -
Satan is also like a Mafia boss - with his organisation of underlings - stationed all over the earth to complete his demented commands. That organisation works in such a way - just like the mafia - that the 'boss' cannot have anything pinned on him because he delegates it to his henchmen and therefore society cannot convict and do not belief the mafia boss has had his hand in so many pies - Satan is brilliant at this tactic and no one is willing to blame all of mankinds sorrows on him because he directly hasn't had a hand in it.
hey guys,.
*** w93 7/15 27 tenderly shepherding jehovah's precious sheep ***.
jesus gave an illustration about a man who had a hundred sheep but promptly searched for one that had strayed in order to bring it back to the flock.
Pureheart,
In which case the title of your thread is misleading. This 1993 article is stating that any inactive person engaging in wrongdoing could be disfellowshipped. Elders will not have any other choice than to disfellowship if the inactive one does not show remorse in some way. There is nothing new. The article states that an inactive one is still regarded as one of the flock. This is standard policy. It will be surprising if most of the active ones claim they don't know this.
Elsewhere,
An inactive one, although not interacting with the congregation, can still be interacting with members of the congregation. Getting that one 'marked' is even not a definite statement that there should be no interaction with him. The elders can do that, give a talk about the erring course, and then word might get passed around about the person 'walking in a disorderly manner'. But 'protection' of the congregation will not be complete until that person is disfellowshipped. Wacky, but there is some consistency there, the Wacthtower way.
quote.
"i feel you should remember where you got the truth.
first, who was the one feeding you to where you are now.".
Marvin Shilmer,
Me:Thank you.
“Brother [John Doe] helped me in my search for truth, and my craving for truth has not diminished since then. Do you think it should?”
quote.
"i feel you should remember where you got the truth.
first, who was the one feeding you to where you are now.".
Francois:
What is truth?!
are jw's going to turn into a basicly 3rd world religion?.
hardly any new converts in western land , and lots of children leaving or not taking it seriously.. people in pourer countries need a hope , lack education , and maybe look up to people in western lands and their ideas.. so will bethel soon be in africa?
The third world is fertile ground for the Watchtower message: a happy future, food for all, perfect health, social equality etc etc are themes that appeal to Africa's downtrodden. And the Society is milking it. Power will still be resident in the West. That, curiously, adds to the invisibility if the Society in the eyes of the African brothers; Brooklyn is far away, may be closer to heaven.
Steph,
that the Society will enter into politics if it won't be public knowledge is something I don't doubt. Any little advantage, they'll be willing to grab. But I think the Zambian presidential candidate was not himself a Witness; his wife was. Of course, she was disfellowshipped; and that good woman has continued to stoutly support her husband.
'The sins of the Watchtower Society are written with an iron stylus.'
