I stepped out of the Publix Grocery in Orlando, the heat hit me first and as my eyes adjusted to the glare of the parking lot, I saw him, white hat, white shirt, black as Ethiopia with a gray mustache, seemingly untouched by the temperature wafting up off the asphalt, smiling big as he conversed with a middle aged couple by a car. Doing streetwork and enjoying it. Thank you God. I love to find a Witness. I look for them all the time and despite all the hours they turn in I have a hard time catching them. I guess that's because I am usually looking in a strange city and am always trying to get somewhere. Still sometimes I tell my wife, "This neighborhood, I just know I could find some on a pretty morning in this neighborhood. I will just take a little while but I want to drive through and check it out." Usually nothing. But not today. Today, when I am not even looking, here one is like a gift! He looks so confident and happy, looks to be in his late fifties, maybe an elder! I've got one. Wouldn't you know I am under a little time pressure. I am on vacation and my wife and I are on the way to my son's place. She wanted to stop and get some odds and ends. Even if it makes us late, I will take some time for this.
I walk up quietly, nod and stop to listen, they all turn and look at me expectantly. I say, "Don't mean to be rude, but if you are having a bible conversation, just thought I would listen in, especially if you are a Jehovah's Witness, which you seem to be. Don't let me slow you down, just go on with what you're talking about, I can wait." The couple seems a little taken aback, but he eats it up, he says with a grin "We all are." echoed by the other two, "Yes, we are all Jehovah's Witnesses." Three when I only hoped for one, I love it. He hands me a tract, on the front it has a picture of a little girl with a basket of flowers in front of a tombstone, it says beneath the picture, "What Hope for dead loved ones?" He asks me, "What hope do you have for your loved ones?" All fine and good but not what I want to talk about. I can see my wife standing in the front of the store now, looking at me with a frown. She knows what is going on, and knows it might be a while, it is hot and we do need to go. "Not what I want to talk about, friend, I was just wondering if you are in the New Covenant?" I know this will probably make him think I am a Pentecostal or something. I should have asked, "Have you been born again?" but just couldn't go quite that far. I DON'T want him to wonder if I am an ex-witness, apostate to him, if he thinks that,... then nothing I say will matter. He grins like a shark in a school of fish, says "Well, the old law was nailed to the torture stake with Jesus and it had already said back here in the Old Testament that there was gonna be a new covenant.." as he says this he is thumbing through the old testament but not finding what he is looking for. I am in a hurry so I butt in and say "It is at Jeremiah 31:31, quoted again in Hebrews word for word and it does say there will be a new covenant, a covenant of the heart that you don't have to teach your fellow man, my question was..... are you, yourself, in it?" He stops a second, me quoting the scripture throws him a little and he eyes me and gets a little cagey, "Well, now, what uh, what would you say the criteria for that would be???" He thinks he has me pegged as a backwoods, redneck, probably some kind of preacher, well, he is in the ball park. I am backwoods, was raised a redneck and I sure want to "preach" to him and his friends. Still, I don't have enough time to really play this game so I cut to the chase, not wanting to sound anything like a witness, "Well,... I'd say if you eat the Bread... and Drink the Wine at the Passover, The Lord's Supper..you know?...., then you are in the New Covenant, didn't Christ say when he had the last Passover, everywhere it quotes him....the Gospels, even Corinthians,.... "This is my blood, OF THE COVENANT? That would mean his blood pays for your sins, if now.....if.. he is your high priest... and IF you are in the covenant." He says, "I am then." I am surprised, he is lying and knows it.....I guess, hmmmm...this forces my hand a little. I say, "You eat the bread and drink the wine at the Lord's Evening Meal?" He says, "Well, no, if that is the criteria, no, I don't. But, the ransom sacrifice of Jesus pays for my sins and I am in the Covenant." Too much, I have to break cover a little. "No you are not. Not according to what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. Do you know what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe?" Now he is the one who is surprised, "Oh, YOU gonna tell ME!!! WHAT I BELIEVE???" We are starting to get a little loud so I say low and slow, "Yep. I sure will. See...I know all about you. I have researched the Jehovah's Witnesses and your church doesn't believe you are in the New Covenant or that Jesus is your High Priest or that Jesus is your Mediator. All of Y'all are the same 'cause you think the Covenant is a covenant for a kingdom (the woman nods and says "It was a covenant for a kingdom.") and that only a hundred and forty four thousand kings and priests are gonna be in it and.....NONE of y'all eat the Bread or drink the Wine, now do you? Because you think you are gonna live on the earth. So none of y'all are in The Covenant. Course I think y'all are wrong and that all of you Should be in it because it says in Ephesians, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism!" I do say y'all all the time, but as this guy had such good diction and was using proper English, I hoped that allowing free rein to my natural speech would distance me from the Boys in Brooklyn and make me seem less of a threat due to my being a hillbilly, also calling their group a church might help. In addition to that being an accurate scripture it is also one frequently quoted by fundamentalists. I thought that what I said about the mediatorship would stir the ant bed up pretty good as somehow most witnesses haven't let that sink in and I hoped it would make them think a little in spite of themselves. Everything had been so nice and polite up till then. At this all three began to clamor, the woman said, "That's not true, they would never say that! because that is not true! and we all pray through Jesus' name when we pray!" Her husband (I guess) says," There's a verse that says he IS the mediator between God and all men!" I told him it was 1 Tim. 2:5-6, the older guy is looking up Revelation to prove that it was a covenant with only 144,000 and starts telling me the names of the tribes. He (the older black man) says, "I have distributed literature that taught Jesus is the Mediator for all men!" I say, "Nope. They say that is just for the 144,000." Things are cooking. I tell the older guy, "The number 144,000 is symbolic, those aren't the twelve tribes of Israel, you are listing Joseph's sons also and it is all symbolic anyway don't you think? It also says there in Revelation that they weren't defiled by women, are you saying that is literal too?" The old guy says "No, some of the anointed ARE WOMEN so that has to be symbolic!" I say, "So everything is symbolic except the number, huh?" The old guy says "No, but that number is literal." The woman is still telling me that the society has always taught that Jesus is the Mediator, the other guy is just being quite and listening. Probably doesn't like how loud the conversation got for a minute or two. Anyway, it is time to go, my poor wife is eager to leave and has been real patient. She is standing in the shade out in front of the store, I motion for her to come on out and then fire my parting shot, "Look, you can believe it or not, it is up to you. I think you are right in what you think now. I hope you keep believing that Jesus is the Mediator for all men no matter what anyone says, and that is definitely what the scripture says, but not what your religion teaches. I've got to go as my I've made my wife wait long enough in this heat, last thing I want to ask you is.. If I am right, and you will find I am right on this, that they teach he is not your mediator or your high priest and that you are not under the blood of the covenant (they all try to talk at once here) IF I AM RIGHT AND THEY DO TEACH IT, .....WHAT WILL YOU DO??? What will you do? Thanks for talking to me, maybe I'll see y'all around, I hope so." I turn to walk away, the older man is saying, "Hey, she can wait some! I gave you my time out here! You can stay here and talk a little longer!" I was tempted to point out that he was counting time and I wasn't but that would be too much. The woman is looking really troubled. I hope because she knows the ring of truth when she hears it. I open the door for my wife who is looking a little irritated but not saying anything. As we drive away I say, "Baby, this was the most important thing I will do today. Maybe, just maybe when they check it out and see I was telling the truth, they will remember what they said when they were arguing that the society would never teach that." We saw our son that day, the next day on over to Redington Beach, beautiful waves from a storm in the Gulf, live music, great seafood, even had a crab and creamcheese omelet for breakfast this morning at a place called Kenny's Korner, but I still keep thinking back to the bit of time in the parking lot at Publix. That woman, she was so adamant that they would never teach that, as it was against what the bible said. I think she will check, and when she checks...... Maybe, just maybe.
Posts by Grunt
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10What I did on my vacation
by Grunt ini stepped out of the publix grocery in orlando, the heat hit me first and as my eyes adjusted to the glare of the parking lot, i saw him, white hat, white shirt, black as ethiopia with a gray mustache, seemingly untouched by the temperature wafting up off the asphalt, smiling big as he conversed with a middle aged couple by a car.
that would mean his blood pays for your sins, if now.....if.. he is your high priest... and if you are in the covenant.
i have researched the jehovah's witnesses and your church doesn't believe you are in the new covenant or that jesus is your high priest or that jesus is your mediator.
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Grunt
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Adoption by Jehovah's Witnesses is blocked
by expatbrit inadoption by jehovah's witnesses is blocked .
the independent - united kingdom; may 26, 2001. by brian farmer.
a couple originally approved by a council as adoptive parents have been refused permission by social workers to adopt a child, because they are jehovah's witnesses.
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Grunt
Sadly, witnesses adopting children does not really reflect love in many cases. Nor is their primary reason always the chance to convert someone to the "truth." In Florida at least, they are paid to adopt certain categories of children, and by adopting they have a better chance of keeping the child as opposed to just being paid foster parents. The pay is the same as adoptive parents and they have much more control. Still, I would never allow my child in a kingdom hall if I had it to do again. I stopped going but allowed my child to spend time with relatives who were witnesses. If I had stayed in California, and never allowed my child to associate wtih witness relatives, I would still have a daughter. Tough choice, keep your child away from your extended family to protect your immediate family. Sad. Typical of witnesses with whom no relationship can be taken for granted but very, very sad. Even sadder when you lose a child as I have, to this cult. Nothing "deeper" just told that I was threatening her faith. What a fragile faith they have.
To me, Waiting's answer gives the defining proof (as it so often does) of why witnesses should NOT be allowed to adopt. How much clearer do you want it? As for JW views on shunning, well, it is all documented, if you really want to see the writing say so. What would impress me more if I were you are all the good people taking time to talk to you about their own experiences, family they have lost. You are able to talk here because of that experience if I am not mistaken, Simon's family turned on him if I remember correctly.
"Experience is a hard school, but a fool will have no other." Heed that adage and learn in an easier school. Jehovah's witesses are a cult, a foul cult, and as my brother says, they have gone through my family like a plague. -
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What about the poisitve things learned?
by aud8 inwhat about the biblical truths explined by the witnesses?
yes there are many things wrong with the organisation, but they did get a lot right - trinity, hell etc etc is anyone grateful for some of the teachings they received whilst being a witness?.
aud8
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Grunt
Aud8 and Troubled,
I am grateful for the accurate information on hell and for the fact that joining the witnesses got me to become more religious. However, I have to agree that they do denial and anti stuff much better than any positive beliefs. They are best at denouncing other religions and worst at showing real love, for each other or for the people of the world at large. Friends are only friends as long as they tow the line. Miss a few meetings or become inactive and suddenly you are "weak" and have become "bad association." The doctrinal things that I hold most against them are getting people to deny christ as their mediator and to accept that they are second class and don't deserve to be in the new covenant. Christ says his blood is the blood of the covenant, not in the covenant, don't get the benefits. By separating the blood from the covenant they make it seem that if you give up christ and keep his blood you get a different deal. They bribe them by dangling a paradise earth in front of them. They will agree to anything and abandon anyone for "eternal life on paradise earth." I think that is the other thing I hold most against them, that they get children, parents, brothers and sisters to sell each other out for this promise. Smacks of plea bargains and the prison system to me. I wouldn't sell my parents down the river for eternal life, or my children, or my friends. They are pretty blatent about it, as in asking who the most important relationship is, who the only one who can offer them eternal life is. If you only believe because of a reward then I don't think much of your sincerity. If the devil could offer more I guess they would switch over. There are relationships that you should be able to take for granted, in the Jehovah's Witnesses they take that away, they buy it. -
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The Watchtower Has Downgraded Love
by metatron ina number of you like to speculate, 'reading between the lines'.
of some watchtower article, wondering what reality hides behind.
the starkness of black ink on white paper.. in one recent case, that hidden reality is sad, indeed.. take a good look at a particular contrast.
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Grunt
Hello Metatron,
I couldn't agree more. In addition they have lost their confidence. I think with the witnesses I know they have almost a seige mentality. Gone are the days when they were eager for a debate with a learned foe. Now if anyone shows they have a knowledge of their beliefs and are able to discuss them with a bible then it is time to hit the road. For a group of people who used to pride themselves on their ability to use the bible to prove their beliefs and show others the light, they have really done an about face. An example is this person, Godrules. While I admire him for showing up and for being open-minded enough to want to discuss his beliefs, still he comes in with his head behind his hands: "I don't want to discuss blood, dates"... or I forget what else. I wrote him a long post on the mediatorship and the new covenant but before I posted it I read what everyone else has said and realized it wouldn't do any good. No, the feeling that we are a band of brothers with the one true faith and the lives of the world depend on our discussing the "Truth" and getting it out, seems a thing of the past. I guess with so many computers and so many well informed opponents they have just seen too many other witnesses get shredded. Were you at H20 when Stafford (a JW author) showed up to do battle? He wound up getting thrown off the board by another witness who turned him in for being there, the society threatened him and he acted like he was leaving, then came back with another identity trying to brag on himself and got caught red-handed. With heroes like that I guess it is no wonder that witnesses hide and try to get boards where only other witnesses can talk to them. If they had anything to say, like I used to think I had when I was a witness, then the net would be the most wonderful witnessing tool in the world. No love, no confidence, no real "truth." I am just grateful that the witness kids are getting online and seeing things as they really are. As things get tighter they will get tougher on doubters probably, the thing a cult hates worst is an ex-cult member. The last thing they are thinking of is love. How poor a quality book can we actually push on the "brothers?" -
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First Meeting
by tattoogrl333 ini went to my first jw meeting, there were actually two but i only stayed for the first one.
it was actually kind of fun.
there was role play and that was funny, everyone was laughing and people were soooooo nice in fact most new who i was already.
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Grunt
Hi Tatoogirl,
Assuming this is an honest and sincere post on your part I would have to say:
If you like being a second class citizen, a third class Christian and being judged harshly for your tatoos, or ear rings for that matter then this is the group for you. If you like plastic friends that will only be your friend as long as you are a "Friend" then this group is it for you. If you can turn your back on your brothers, sisters, friends and the society in which you live, then join up. If you can respond as my sister-in-law once responded when told her DF'd brother and his wife'd had a child, "I hope one day that will mean something to me." If you can put on a face of steel when you see a parent who is no longer a Witness or put some ice in your voice as you say, "Don't call me anymore, you weaken my faith." to your mom or dad, then you are a natural for this bunch. As for worrying about hurting the woman's feelings by stopping the study, don't worry, she will be viewing you as goat anyway. Goats don't count, they are just "worldlings" the attitude is the same whether they use the term anymore or not. Even if you get baptized and then just don't go in service much or miss a few meetings she will shy away from you as being "bad association." Ask the lady you study with if she would come to your funeral if you died and your parents were having the service in a church. Ask if she would go to her brother, sister, father, or mother's if it were in a church. That usually clarifies things pretty well. If she says she would then by all means study, as you might bring this one out. -
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Why?
by Francois inya know, the men who make up the official theology-making, policy propagating governing body of jws are not dumb.
they are not ignorant.
they can, as we have done here, compile lists of all their many failed prophecies, and no doubt have done so.
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Grunt
Hello Francois,
I think these men came up through the ranks and were sincere. Then they reached a point where they were the leaders. I think they were so committed, so invested and maybe even so deceived by then that they just kept waving the flag and proclaiming the war a just one. Not that that means they have or had integrity. Anyone that can that can tell a woman that just because her husband is having sex with an animal doesn't mean she is entitled to a divorce, that can deny people transplants as it would be cannibalism, that can encourage immediate family members to treat others in their family as dead, that can accept dates based on the steps measured off in a pyramid, that can send many to death and rape in prisons rather than accept alternative service....AND THEN REVERSE IT ALL!!! Any group of men that can tell one group of followers not to buy a voting card even though they are hacking the meat off their legs and tell another that bribing officials to get a military card is up to their conscience at the same time the other group is being killed, that can CONSIDER changing the time for the beginning of Christ's presence based on the launching of Sputnik.......well, they are perverse and wicked to me. Whether driven by their own twisted views of truth, the love of money, or the power and respect of being the voice of God to so many makes no difference. I know I have no respect for them and at moments would really love a little time alone with them in a room with no doors and a ball bat. Ah, that's my gut speaking. My mind says they are getting what they deserve every time they look in a mirror and see that pile of excrement looking back, my heart says twisting loved ones to return good for evil and hate those whom the bible says they should honor deserves punishment. So two parts of me want to go kick the door down in their meeting room and give them a dose of the pain they hand out, the other part says I would be as big a hypocrite as them if I even lust after such a revenge. In short, they are evil men who stir up the dark side even when thinking about them.
I do my very best to expose them as such at every opportunity and to show their lies to be just that, especially to Witnesses. When I can I give a REAL witness to a witness. As a matter of fact I was passing though Georgia the other day, saw a young man outside a BurgerKing standing in the shade of a tree talking to an older man and my wife had heard the name Jehovah mentioned. I had to horn in. It turned out the young man was just parroting the views of his father who is a witness. I asked him a few questions, realized he knew nothing of the beliefs he was espousing and helped him to a clearer understanding, though I doubt if it sticks. I got off into the mediatorship and the new covenant and he didn't know he had been denied both. The thing I said that seemed to actually touch him was when I told him that if he really valued his relationship with his father the last thing he should do was get baptized as if he ever changed his mind there was a good chance his father would shun him. He doubted this and I related my personal experience which seemed to have an impact on him. I left feeling much better, though I owed my wife big time for telling me as she knew it would mean some time in the truck in the GA sun waiting for me to talk to them. I watch for Witnesses like a hawk looks for mice. I paid my wife off with a fine room in Hiawassee and telling her I might just have helped one. Forgive the length of this post and I enjoy yours very much as I do so many on this board. I have been out of town and hadn't visited in a long time. It is always so refreshing and informative to find kindred spirits and knowledgeable ones at that. -
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WATCHTOWER JULY 1,2001 page 18-21
by hippikon inthe watchtower july 1,2001 page 18-21. .
do not let doubts destroy your faith.
one day you think you are in good health.
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Grunt
Thanks Hippikon,
I don't get the mags anymore and am being shunned by my daughter, I kind of like to take a taste of her fuel every once in a while to remind myself to be forgiving of her. She is a victim, in a mind-controlling cult. I am the father and the christian and should be forgiving.
Thanks again, -
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White man`s religion
by JWD ini was in the philippines some time ago.
the big religion there is a group called `iglesia ni cristo`(literally church of christ).
an indigenous group which sprung up around the turn of the century.. it has since become hugh(in the philippines).
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Grunt
I think the Pentecostal's popularity prove that emotionalism appeals to all types of people. As I tell the blacks and whites (and others) that I deal with, there are far more differences between job categories than races. The I.Q. spread between engineers and day laborers is far greater than that between whites and blacks (or any other groups I am aware of.) The same crimes whether of passion or greed are common to all groups, they have all needed punishments for the same things. As for the Jehovah's Witnesses being a "white religion" I disagree. It is a poor person's religion. With it, even the poor and down trodden can have what the rich can't, eternal life later and the "inside track" now. "Only WE know the TRUTH and everybody else is gonna pay!" Lots of religions and cults do this. The fact that the old bozo's that started this religion were white no more define it as white than the founders of communism made it "white." There are true friends and faithful spouses as well as bullies and harlots in all human groups. As for Canadians being free from racism, that too is just another generalization. Ask the Native Americans. Check the percentages in the prisons. From Africa to Europe there are minorities on the bottom of the totem poles. Frequently persecuted or downtrodden minorities who often live up to the roles assigned them. Self-fulfilling prophecies, I think they used to be referred to??? From Bill Clinton to Prince Charles, from Hirohito to Big Daddy Amin, from Germany to the killing fields of Cambodia, there's not that much difference between races and nationalities, but a great deal between individuals. As for the Witnesses, they are just another cult, and I do mean CULT. Not the first to ruin lives, and I am sorry to say not the only or the last. Don't judge me by my race or my nationality, judge me by my actions and my attitudes. I oppose racists of any color, I oppose cults regardless of name, size or place of national origin.
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Have I changed?
by mommy inas most of you know i am new to the world of the internet.
therefore i am new to the discussion board forum.
when i first entered simon's place, i did not fear to speak my mind.
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Grunt
Hello Wendy,
I don't come here all that often, though it is the only religious board I read any more. I have had to stay much too busy lately, and I regret that. Also, I am trying to do a little active work and deal with Witnesses face to face. When I do come I glance at the posts and only have time to read a few. The fact that I read this one should tell you that I respect you. I hope you stick around and continue to help those who find their way here. You, Frenchy, Waiting, Seven and all of the old crew will always have my affection and respect.
I appreciate your being true to who you are and I try to do likewise, no fake persona just another nickname for the same old guy. I love your picture, and I too love to go to the Blue Ridge Parkway, Grandfather Mountain and various areas close to you. I think one of my favorite views is the one from the Huntress Dianna statue in front of the Biltmore Estate with the mountain behind that home. It seems to offer beauty from man and nature. I wish you peace and happiness. -
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How the WT Cheats Parents and Hurts Families
by metatron inthere will always be good families that produce bad kids and.
bad families that produce good kids - call it genes or reincarnation.
nevertheless, it should be evident to all that the.
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Grunt
Fred, in your insult you name your own fears, that if you could ever trick a woman into marrying you she would quickly seek intelligent conversation if not more, elsewhere. Having a cheating wife is a problem you can only aspire to. His throwing thosed masturbation chapters in your face again probably hurt too. The only way I can think of for you to get a wife is to go to an assembly, have an armful of Watchtowers under one arm and Awakes under the other and a sign around your neck proclaiming, "Deaf, mute, male Witness with job and four door car seeks mate." Don't let them trick you into talking ever, or at least until after the marriage ceremony. What ever you do, don't have children.
Metatron, I agree with you that the Society has been weighed in the scales and found wanting by most of the youth. That is great news. I only hope that the enormous number of those either never getting baptized or those leaving afterwards can change the treatment accorded them. I think it already has to some degree except in the case of the true fanatics. In my extended family of Witnesses, I can only think of a couple who are "old school" compared to many nominal members and many more who never got baptized. With most kids getting more and more access to computers this trend will only improve. Maybe this really is the "Last Generation" of Witnesses anyway. Maybe we will get to see this cult dismantled or changed beyond recognition in our lifetime. I hope so. For the sake of all the deluded and all they harm, I hope so.