While over at Rado's site admiring all his work and achivements, I read an article in an Arizona newspaper telling about a quickbuild. It was the usual admiring article. All about the selfless workers, the well organized job, how most churches contracted this work out but they did it themselves, that sort of thing. I wrote a letter to the editor and told him to please research the group before advertizing for them. I told him I was an ex-member and pointed out several views the group held, that I didn't imagine his paper wanted to promote, shunning family members, demanding total agreement with all WatchTower beliefs, refusal to allow life saving medical treatment and finally hiding pedophiles. I doubt it gets published, though I filled out all the forms and gave all the information asked for, but maybe, just maybe they won't push this cult again without checking them out first. Do any of you write letters to the editor about the Society? Have any been published? I know I could lose my parents if this became known and I did give my real name and address but I just couldn't stand to see this family destroying cult pushed like the Boy Scouts and Apple Pie religion that it ISN'T.
Posts by Grunt
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Letter to the Editor
by Grunt inwhile over at rado's site admiring all his work and achivements, i read an article in an arizona newspaper telling about a quickbuild.
it was the usual admiring article.
all about the selfless workers, the well organized job, how most churches contracted this work out but they did it themselves, that sort of thing.
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Causing 'Chaos' @ District Conventions ....
by invisible inceltic here.. i realise many of you are not yet upto scratch on downright going for the society, that's cool.. for those of you more radical activists out there, what better possible manner in which to cause major disruption and to teach something of our aims to a potential massive audience, than to attend a district convention near you.. saucepans and sticks don't half make one hell of a din.. digital cameras are cool too to record all activity and to possibly edit later on for possible leverage with media bodies interested in the event etc.. the point is, is to have a watertight angle on which to go in on, to cause the best possible effect to our strategic advantage.
that means imforming the media of our presence in advance plus many other initiatives that will be described as part of a longer post on this subject tomorrow.. take a leaf out of the uk road protesters and anti global capitalists book, they could teach us a thing or two.. so who's up from you bunch of slackers, for causing major disruptions this year?
bring your wire snippers with you.. peace.
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Grunt
I really believe the best way to oppose this group is to be very open with people you work with, friends and neighbors about your having been in the cult and why you got out as well as the consequences. It is easy for me to do that as I live so far away from my family back in Alabama. If you can't do that without losing the hostages they hold on you, then being here, posting is good too, I think.
I personally speak up whenever the group's name comes up. I am always looking for witnesses and if I see one I always go up and engage them in conversation, try to enlighten them a little without offending them. I think Red-horse-woman did a magnificent job on a magazine site sometime ago, she and another ex-witness told it like it was, just questions and answers without any exaggeration. The truth is enough, and my real feelings towards these poor dupes is a desire to help. I was one, after all, my parents and a child still are. I do think if every ex-witness would put a bumper sticker on their car to that effect it would be an eye-opener for everyone, especially witnesses, as there are so many of us.
Having lost a child to this group, I really don't want to risk my parents, especially at their age when I want to be able to help them and repay them for all the love they gave me. -
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A little bit of history
by RR inbelow is an interesting letter from walter salter [prominent jw in canada]if i'm not mistaken is was branch manager of ther canadian wts.
anyways, this is a letter to judge rutherford.. __________________.
box no.
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Grunt
Thanks RR,
It is amazing to think with such information out there anyone who reads it could stay in such a group. It is also sad to see just how long this cult has been damaging people. Once more, thank you for your effort in putting this up. People like you are the worst enemy of this group of liars, and the best soldiers in the opposition. Number me among your ranks. -
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My Experience Today with My Brother
by Reborn2002 inwell, my brother and his wife came over to my parent's house to visit today while i was home.. to make a long story short, while my brother and his wife were chatting with my mother in the living room, my 1 and a half year old nephew reilly walked into the kitchen where i was making a caesar salad.. he walked over towards me and was smiling, how can any normal adult resist the innocent smile of a child who is your relative?
i picked him up and gave him a huge hug, and told him i loved him.. as i was holding my nephew in my arms, my brother walked into the room.
he was smack dab in the middle of an in-depth conversation about jehovah with my mother and his wife, and i admit i was rolling my eyes listening to him spew about the "truth" and "the only means for salvation in the last days of this wicked system" even though when i confronted him with info on the un, blood, russell gravesite, rape changes, exclusivity, etc, he had no response for me because he was dumbfounded and lost for words.
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Grunt
Hi Reborn,
There could be no better group to completely understand how you feel and to admire your behavior than this one. I imagine if your parents did as well with raising your brother as you he will be sorry for his behaviour. If your nepehw follows the path of most other Witness children he will be free as soon as he is independent so you have that to look forward to. Maybe he will turn to you for help then. I wish knowledge and the healing that it brings to your brother. I and many others here know what you are going through and I am so sorry to see you or anyone else have to feel that feeling of rejection from someone so close and for the sake of a cult. Your brother is not himself, but a Watchtower Clone. When he becomes himself again, which odds are he will, then I hope you two can be real brothers again. In the meantime being the one with the knowledge, it means you have the greater responsibility to protect that future and you did. I applaud your maturity and wisdom.Best wishes for you and yours,
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Stone Cold Witness!
by Grunt inthought some might have forgotten the basis for some of the wt dates like 1914, the stone witness (aka great pyramid) and how some bible students (aka c.t.
russell) got wrapped up in measuring it to get an understanding of the bible.
this is one of my favorite wt quotes as it shows all the reasons not to believe anything they say and then says you should anyway.
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Grunt
Thought some might have forgotten the basis for some of the WT dates like 1914, the Stone Witness (aka Great Pyramid) and how Some Bible Students (aka C.T. Russell) got wrapped up in measuring it to get an understanding of the bible. This is one of my favorite WT quotes as it shows all the reasons NOT to believe anything they say and then says you should anyway.
Grunt
January 1, 2000 WT, Page 9 – starting with the last sentence in the 15th paragraph):
It is wrong to add to God’s Word or to take anything away from it. – Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18,19.
16 One example will underline how important this principle is. In 1886 when C.T. Russell published a book that came to be called The Divine Plan of the Ages, This volume contained a chart linking the ages of mankind with the Great Pyramid of Egypt. It was thought that this memorial of Pharaoh Khufu was the pillar referred to at Isaiah 19:19, 20: “In that day there will prove to be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to Jehovah beside its boundary. And it must prove to be a for a sign and for a witness to Jehovah of armies in the land of Egypt.” What relationship could the pyramid have with the Bible? Well, as an example, the length of certain passages in the Great Pyramid was said to indicate the time for the beginning of the “great tribulation” of Matthew 24:21, as it was then understood. Some Bible Students became engrossed with measuring different features of the pyramid to determine such matters as the day they would be going to heaven!
17 This so called Bible in Stone was held in esteem for some decades, until the Watchtower issues of November 15, and December 1, 1928 made clear that Jehovah needed no stone monument built by pagan pharaohs and containing demonic signs of astrology to confirm the witness given in the Bible. Rather, Isaiah’s prophecy was seen to have a spiritual application. As at Revelation 11:8, “Egypt” is symbolic of Satan’s world. The “altar to Jehovah” reminds us of the acceptable sacrifices made by anointed Christians while they are temporary residents in this world. (Romans 12:1; Hebrews 13:15, 16) The pillar “beside [Egypt’s] boundary” points to the congregation of anointed Christians, which is “a pillar and support of the truth” and which stands as a witness in “Egypt,” the world that they are about to leave. –1 Timothy 3:15.
18 As the years pass, Jehovah continues to give us further clarification of truth, including a clearer understanding of his prophetic word. (Proverbs 4:18) In recent years, we have been encouraged to look again with deeper understanding at – among other things – the generation that will not pass away before the end comes, the parable of the sheep and the goats, the disgusting thing and when it will stand in a holy place, the new covenant, the transfiguration, and the temple vision of the book of Ezekiel. It may be difficult at times to understand such updated explanations, but the reasons for them become clear in due course. If a Christian does not fully understand a new explanation of a scripture, he does well humbly to echo the words of the prophet Micah: “ I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation”-Micah7:7.
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Who Mediates?
by Englishman inas most jws no longer have jesus as their mediator, how do they conclude their prayers?.
......and so, dear father, we approach you now in the name of the 144,000. amen?.
i only recently became aware of this change where jesus is mediator to just a select few.
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Grunt
I think the Bible says that if you are in the covenant, your sins are forgiven through the blood of Christ. This blood is referred to as the "blood of the covenant." It seems to me, no blood, no covenant, no covenant, no forgiveness of sins. Now, according to the Society only the "Anointed" the "144,000" are in the covenant, hence only they partake of the emblem of Christ's blood which signifies forgiveness of sins, The "other sheep" or "alien residents" or "foreigners" who make up "The Great Crowd" are not forgiven. The Society then twists this even further and says the "144,000" can gradually apply the ransom and it's power to erase sins, really the Blood of the Covenant to the other sheep, without them ever being in a covenant of any kind. I find no support in the Bible for this. Maybe they got it from the "Great Stone Witness" along with their dates?
Here are some quotes on the blood being a part of the covenant. As I read it, you can't have the blood without being in the covenant.
Mark 14: 23 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, and they all drank out of it. 24 And he said to them: "This means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many
Luke: 22:19 .... Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
Matthew 26: 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: "Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
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Who Mediates?
by Englishman inas most jws no longer have jesus as their mediator, how do they conclude their prayers?.
......and so, dear father, we approach you now in the name of the 144,000. amen?.
i only recently became aware of this change where jesus is mediator to just a select few.
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Grunt
What is most sad about this, is the reaction you get when you tell a Witness that this is their belief. At first they deny it, usually without really knowing what verse they are quoting they will quote a paraphrase of:
1 Tim. 2 5-6: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all
As though their being aware of that scripture means it IS what the Society teaches. When you actually give the quotes from the WT and PROVE that the WT is teaching the opposite of what they have just said they really believe, and they are convinced it really is the view from New York.....THEY SWITCH. On the spot. Without reservation. When put with their back to the wall, either the Society is wrong or you have to give up Jesus as your mediator....they give him up.
"Ok, he is not the mediator for me. The 144,000 or whomever the Society says, that is ok with me. Back to something important, We are the only people with Jehovah's Name, the ONLY people teaching the same message around the world, the only people going door to door!"
Like teaching the same lie, in the name of God, around the world, door to door, makes it better. Heartbreaking. There is a book called "Apostles of Denial" and the title has them pegged pretty good. It is not what they DO believe, it is what they DON'T that they are proudest of. Freddy Franz once said not every Tom, Dick or Harry could be in the new covenant. Their arrogance wants them to take back the New Covenant and keep it for themselves. As they say it:"Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind"
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Ho Hilda!
by Grunt inhello hilda,.
you have put me in an awkward position.
i don't know if you have experienced it or not, but when someone violates social protocol and you have to be the one to tell them, well, it just leaves a bad taste.
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Grunt
Hello Hilda,
You have put me in an awkward position. I don't know if you have experienced it or not, but when someone violates social protocol and you have to be the one to tell them, well, it just leaves a bad taste. Yet, you are doing them no favor to leave them with egg on their face, doing something that just isn't done by someone like them. In these days of class consciousness, it is especially difficult to tell someone they are getting above themselves, taking on priviliges that are, well, simply not available to them. How to do it, if you will excuse the phrase, discreetly? I will attempt to make this as easy as possible. Maybe some Watchtower Speak will help. Hmmmm. See if this sounds familiar....The other sheep, showing the humble attitude....They always do good to these brothers of the King, doing so as if to Him. On the other hand, the anointed remnant love these other sheep of the King. Since they must serve with justice, they safeguard the right of these ‘strangers within the gates of the organization’ and do not begrudge them service positions of responsibility such as they have enjoyed in God’s visible organization since 1935.
Notice, "SERVICE POSITIONS" Ok??? Or maybe this will help:
25 Ho, then, you dedicated, baptized Christians who were typified by those ancient Rechabites! You, like them, must keep away from overindulgence, from false worship and from getting mixed up with this world, making it your friend. (Jas. 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17) Keep imitating Jonadab the son of Rechab in displaying zeal for Jehovah and opposition to modern Baal worship, that you may see Jehovah by means of his Greater Jehu, Jesus Christ, destroy Christendom and all other false religions. With Rechabite-like faithfulness, carry out your dedication to the Sovereign Lord Jehovah and take your part in furthering the interests of his glorious kingdom by Christ. This will aid you to hold onto the liberation from this doomed world that you have gained, until it is no more. Using your blessed freedom according to God’s will, you will not be "cut off" when he expresses his vengeance against this wicked world and all its friends, but you will stand approved before him and be rewarded with life on a paradise earth under his Son’s kingdom. Great will be the joy with which the remnant of the Jeremiah class will elatedly rejoice over you!
There now, what could be more clear and simple.
Also, never forget Stay Alive Till 75, oops, I meant never forget the great date of 1932:In 1932 this class was identified with Jonadab, who gladly joined with King Jehu in his chariot on his way to the execution of Baal worshipers, picturing the execution of all false worshipers at the destruction of Babylon the Great and at Armageddon. It was stressed that the way was still open for interested people to join in the service of the King Jesus Christ, the Greater Jehu, in his chariotlike organization.
Now all of those above are YOU. They (the Brothers of Christ) do allow you to serve though and they don't begrudge you your position.
"Since they must serve with justice, they safeguard the right of these ‘strangers within the gates of the organization’ and do not begrudge them service positions of responsibility such as they have enjoyed in God’s visible organization since 1935."
Hmmm, I thought it was '32? Must be new light. Anyway.
Now here are how the "Apples of Jehovah"s Eye" are described:
w78 3/1 :
When the spiritual Israelites drink from this cup, they become sharers with Jehovah respecting Christ’s blood that validates the new covenant. By this gesture the spiritual Israelites show that they worship Jehovah as their God and do not idolize any demon as god. Jehovah accepts Christ’s blood as that which puts the new covenant in force. Likewise the drinkers of the Memorial cup accept Christ’s blood as the life that he poured out in sacrifice for them to get God’s forgiveness of sins through that covenant.
They sound almost normal, now don't they?
Now this is the crux of it. They are in the Covenant, you are not. They can sign Freddy Franz in Christ, you can't. Hate to be blunt, but there it is. They get the benefits of the Ransom, and over the thousand years will give you as much as they decide to "render" after you have proven yourself. So it comes down to this. You are NOT Hilda in Christ. You are a Starving Egyptian who is allowed to serve some person named You Know in Christ or somesuch. Ok? Now let's not have to have this discussion again. Come in the back door, never speak to the Brothers of Christ without grabbing a forelock, always remember who YOU are and who they are ok? One more thing, don't EVER EVER forget how humble and modest they are, in fact talk about it a lot. You might mention it to some of the other Gibeonites. Sigh, Ten men holding to the skirt of a Jew, it must grow so tiresome for them to carry such a load. Don't make them throw you out of the Chariot.So from now on, just plain Hilda will do Ok?
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Hildabingen and Her Thought Stuff
by Amazing inhello hilda: in your thread below about "thought exeperiments and bill bowen, you state the following: "i once had a friend who had racial epithets hurled at her by a white man.
he was not the only one who showed himself to be a racist.
she also went to get a job at a huge prominent corporation in a prosperous country and she did not get the job because she was a certain color.
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Grunt
The Watchtower society is corrupt from the top down. Maybe they could take some of the rubble from their buildings and pave some streets? Maybe Patterson would make a good rest home, assisted care center? Under different management of course! The present group has proven to be untrustworthy around vulnerable people.
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Barb Anderson--Front Page of the Tenn. paper
by VeniceIT inhttp://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/02/05/17418642.shtml?element_id=17418642 .
here is her front page article, luv the kh sign in the background!!!.
ven
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Grunt
Hello again Hilda,
Thanks for helping me out there. I think I understand your problem.
You said,
"The expression pretty much means (in a way) that language, like thought, ultimately fails when it comes to communicating meaning. There is a curious presence of absence when it comes to words, my friend."
I disagree. The way you use it, it is confusing but I think that language does an admirable job of communicating meaning. I think words FILL that void you are skirting around. They sometimes have to be chosen like "Apples of Gold" but words do get the job done. Though there is a catch. There has to be some thought and a lot of honesty behind the words if they are to be beneficial. I think that language can soothe hearts that are grief stricken, take us on ethereal flights to places far above the normal range or we can go on words with beautiful ideas to a depth of soul that few ever plumb. I offer as proof these words, some of my favorites by the way:
Tears, Idle Tears, I know not what they mean, Tears from the depths of some divine despair, Rise in the heart and gather to the eyes......Dear as remembered kisses after death, And sweet as those by hopeless fancy feigned, On lips that are for others; deep as love, Deep as first love, and wild with all regret; O Death in Life, the days that are no more!Pinched from Tennyson, aren't they beautiful? No absence there, only a rich fullness that elevates us and helps us understand the mortal condition. I just read the whole poem, I hope you do.
Anyway, here are some more absence filling words, also some of my favorites because they hit a problem I have had with the Witnesses:
Matthew chap.. 15...
3 In reply he said to them: "Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.' 5 But YOU say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother: "Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God," 6 he must not honor his father at all.' And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 'This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.'" 10 With that he called the crowd near and said to them: "Listen and get the sense of it: 11 Not what enters into [his] mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of [his] mouth that defiles a man."Now, I am not trying to step on your toes here, Hilda, but you might pay especial attention to that last part. I think you have made a mistake in whom you chose as your Mediator. I don't know flip, but I choose to believe that Jesus is my mediator. You have accepted a bunch of old men in Brooklyn as yours. Hilda, these guys are not in touch with the real world. I know, I know, you said, "I leave the smart guys to figure out this dilemma, grunt." That is a bad idea, Hilda, they aren't that smart. They just try to use big words and oxymorons to appear smart. Appearances don't count for much, it is what is inside that counts. What men and women see don't matter, it is what is inside you that matters. I hope that you are here really trying to help, if so then I commend you and admire you for it. If all you are here for is to bandy words about, then I hope you will notice the last part of that passage above. It is what comes out of our mouths that counts, not what goes in, what comes out of our intestines gets flushed, what comes out of our mouth can ruin people, destroy families, even cause death. Make sure you listen as well as talk, and that you speak truth as you know it. Measure the people you trust with your spiritual life against the truths you know, that love is the rule and basis of the two great commandments, that there is ONE mediator between god and man, the man Jesus Christ, that any true prophet's words will come true; if they don't then don't fear them as they are NOT true prophets. The words I just spoke are true, they come from my heart and are meant to help you. They are not sarcasm nor are they just jabs and feints.
Sorry for so many words. Sometimes when I think of those I have loved and lost to the lies of the group you espouse, they are my only consolation, my only balm. I fear these words of Tennyson will be true in regards to some I have lost to the Tower you choose to elevate and serve......
Break, break, break,
At the foot of they crags, O Sea!
But the tender grace of a day that is dead
Will never come back to me.I lost my little girl to the cult you belong to. Many, many families have been divided over things that have nothing to do with the bible or any real sin. Look around, think about the damage done, the sins hidden, their real agenda. How many books do you think we need to study the bible? Do you really think shunning your parents because one of them is questioning the doctrines of these men in a building full of printing presses is a good idea, loving, scriptural????
Let me repeat Christ's words: "This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines."
Can't you really see how well that fits them??? Think before you answer. You can figure this one out without any help. Thanks for replying.