i've received numerous questions asking for documentation of issues raised on this board.
some threads have gems that get developed, then buried, and someone raises the same question.
cd roms whirr.. for some ray franz is more than sufficient, others also enjoy the perspective of "apocalypse delayed" by trained historian james penton, which was vital to me personally.
Of course we want a book like this, need you ask? And I can guarantee you that for those of us ex-jw's whose Watchtower library is 3-10 times larger than it EVER was when we were JW's this book is as good as sold.
Love ya Maximus!
Gsark, of the Whirring CD-ROM's Class
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
christians want that everything must be wholesome and up building.
of course nothing could be considered more so than the bible, the word of god.
in our society we are very concerned with human rights and in particular the rights of women and children.
Something I've always wondered about...God kept remarking on and responding to the 'hardheartedness' of the Israelites, but what can you expect when you order adults to kill children, babies even. And they do this repeatedly, hardheartedness can be expected.
On the practical side tho, if the Israelites killed all the adults, and preserved all the children alive, who would care for and support these children, provide them the neccessities of life, and training? This was a nomadic desert people. One cannot serve a child gold or silver for breakfast. I don't see how the Israelites could have supported perhaps tens of thousands of baby boys and girls.
Killing all women who had evidence of sexual intercourse with a man (as opposed to lesbians???) could be predicated on the existance of rampant venereal disease among cultures with the kind of sexual practices we've been told they had. The Israelites had no cure for these diseases, they could only watch these women and their affected children die slowly and painfully from these diseases while at the same time having to share their resources with them. Impractical at least and at most economically unfeasible.
Why kill the baby boys and not baby girls? Girls are smaller and won't eat as much? My son has trouble understanding that as well. I can only guess that the Israelites could not do it, so God let them off the hook by saying they could preserve alive the baby girls.
And I agree with other posters, if an Israelite man could hand over his own daughter and say 'here do with her as you wish' one could only consider with near horror how these foreign females fared in daily Jewish life.
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
the kingdom interlinear translation (kit) has been published by the.
watchtower since 1969. it still is available in it's second editon.. but how many really use this book?
or read it?
good point, scorpion! In 25 years in and around the org, not only did I never use the KIT, I never even HAD one. not untill I became an ex-jw. LOL
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
the kingdom interlinear translation (kit) has been published by the.
watchtower since 1969. it still is available in it's second editon.. but how many really use this book?
or read it?
WT 2/1/98 "It Is the Best Interlinear New Testament Available"
THAT is how Dr. Jason BeDuhn describes The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. He explains:
"I have just completed teaching a course for the Religious Studies Department of Indiana University, Bloomington, [U.S.A.] . . . This is primarily a course in the Gospels. Your help came in the form of copies of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures which my students used as one of the textbooks for the class. These small volumes were invaluable to the course and very popular with my students."
Why does Dr. BeDuhn use the Kingdom Interlinear translation in his college courses? He answers: "Simply put, it is the best interlinear New Testament available. I am a trained scholar of the Bible, familiar with the texts and tools in use in modern biblical studies, and, by the way, not a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses. But I know a quality publication when I see one, and your 'New World Bible Translation Committee' has done its job well. Your interlinear English rendering is accurate and consistent to an extreme that forces the reader to come to terms with the linguistic, cultural, and conceptual gaps between the Greek-speaking world and our own. Your 'New World Translation' is a high quality, literal translation that avoids traditional glosses in its faithfulness to the Greek. It is, in many ways, superior to the most successful translations in use today."
The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures is published by Jehovah's Witnesses to help lovers of God's Word get acquainted with the original Greek text of the Bible. It contains The New Testament in the Original Greek on the left-hand side of the page (compiled by B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort). A literal word-for-word English translation is found under the lines of Greek text. In the narrow right-hand column is the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, which allows you to compare the interlinear translation with a modern English translation of the Bible
I'm not EVEN gonna go there.
WT 99 CD ROM
THE KINGDOM INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION OF THE GREEK SCRIPTURES: With this word-for-word translation under the Greek Bible text compiled by Westcott and Hort you can get the literal sense of the words used in the original language. A modern-English rendering is provided in the right-hand column. With footnotes, appendix, maps, hard cover, and gilt-embossed title. 17 × 12 × 2.4 cm (6 3/4 × 4 7/8 × 15/16 in.).
As for changes:
This decidedly odd rendering has caused much "tense confusion" to the Watchtower. The footnote in the 1969 purple-cover edition of the KIT states that the "I have been" is "properly rendered in the perfect tense." However, in the l985 Navy-Blue-cover edition, the footnote states that "I have been" is "properly translated by the perfect indicative" (tense).
Wouldn't true scholars KNOW the correct tense? Here the Watchtower has presented two different tenses for the same words. Which is wrong? Which is right? Actually they made three stabs at choosing a tense. In the 1950 NWT of the Christian Greek Scriptures the Watchtower "translators" claimed John 8:58 was in the "perfect indefinite tense". All three tries are WRONG, according to Greek Scholars. The correct tense is the present tense, and the correct translation is "I am", not "I have been". http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/kit.html
Gret website, by the way.
here's more:
http://www.webzonecom.com/ccn/cults/jw-008.txt
I only have the one edition, 1969. Didn't think the others were different either, but THAT I should've known better, this IS the WT <sigh>
my big gripe about the KIT is the translation of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and , 1 Corinthians 14:34b-35 , where the word haivakos pronounced 'gun e' is here translated as 'woman' when it is translated almost a hundred times elsewhere as 'wife'; (big difference in meaning) having authority over as opposed to 'usurping authority over' (another big difference in meaning) and then the word silence which is translated elsewhere as quietness, and so on and so on
the WT changed so much else, you think they could change these verses. H--L NO!
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
considering the simple fact that the watchtower society has declared the united nations an organization lead by satan, it certainly devote a lot of attention to what the un do and say.
*** w99 5/1 15 "let the reader use discernment" ***.
the watchtower definitively said: the whole tendency of the league of nations is to turn the people away from god and from christ, and it is therefore a desolating thing, the product of satan, and an abomination in the sight of god.
sorry for the double post. I swear I only hit it once...
gulp
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
considering the simple fact that the watchtower society has declared the united nations an organization lead by satan, it certainly devote a lot of attention to what the un do and say.
*** w99 5/1 15 "let the reader use discernment" ***.
the watchtower definitively said: the whole tendency of the league of nations is to turn the people away from god and from christ, and it is therefore a desolating thing, the product of satan, and an abomination in the sight of god.
Norm is stomping in puddles again. Here, let me help...
From the WT 99 cd-rom
WT 5/1/99
Subsequently, in its December 15, 1929, issue, on page 374, The Watchtower definitively said: ?The whole tendency of the League of Nations is to turn the people away from God and from Christ, and it is therefore a desolating thing, the product of Satan, and an abomination in the sight of God.? So in 1919 ?the disgusting thing? appeared. In time, the League gave way to the United Nations. Jehovah?s Witnesses have long exposed these human peace organizations as disgusting in God?s sight.
9 The preceding article summarized a clarified view of much of Matthew chapters 24 and 25. Is some clarification in order regarding ?the disgusting thing standing in a holy place?? Apparently so. Jesus? prophecy closely links the ?standing in a holy place? with the outbreak of the foretold ?tribulation.? Hence, even though ?the disgusting thing? has long existed, the link between its ?standing in a holy place? and the great tribulation should affect our thinking. How so?
10 God?s people once understood that the first phase of the great tribulation began in 1914 and that the final part would come at the battle of Armageddon. (Revelation 16:14, 16; compare The Watchtower, April 1, 1939, page 110.) So we can understand why it was once thought that the latter-day ?disgusting thing? must have stood in a holy place soon after World War I.
11 However, in later years we have come to see things differently. On Thursday, July 10, 1969, at the ?Peace on Earth? International Assembly in New York City, F. W. Franz, then vice president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, gave an electrifying talk. In reviewing the previous understanding of Jesus? prophecy, Brother Franz said: ?The explanation was given that the ?great tribulation? had begun in 1914 C.E. and that it was not allowed to run its full course then but God stopped World War I in November of 1918. From then on God was allowing an interval for the activity of his anointed remnant of elect Christians before he let the final part of the ?great tribulation? resume at the battle of Armageddon
WT 8/1/99
?All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.??Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948
This although quoting the Un is making the point that the Un cannot bring human equality. The fact the the WT/GB does not bring equality to women and children either is beside the point?
WT 9/15/99
According to a United Nations report, 1.3 billion people in the developing world have to survive on the equivalent of less than one U.S. dollar a day.
WT 12/1/99
?Apocalypse is today not merely a biblical depiction but it has become a very real possibility.??Javier Pérez de Cuéllar, former secretary-general of the United Nations
poking fun at the UN again for their interpretaion of the word Apocalypse.
WT 4/1/98
(Based on 1994 Demographic Yearbook, United Nations, New York 1996)
WT 8/1/98
Commenting on such trends, the United Nations report ?Impact of Armed Conflict on Children? states: ?More and more of the world is being sucked into a desolate moral vacuum.?
And?
This desire has led sincere people to attempt to bring a measure of justice to human society. To that end, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted in 1948 by the United Nations General Assembly, states: ?All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood
And?
The realization of this objective, as the preamble of the UN Declaration points out, would serve as ?the foundation of freedom, justice, and peace in the world.?
WT 9/15/98
The United Nations Children?s Fund calculates that in the last ten years, two million children have been killed in wars.
(I don?t know if this is the United nations or not.)
WT 2/1/97
According to the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, ?everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.? This includes a person?s right ?to change his religion or belief,? along with the freedom ?to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.??Article 18.
WT 7/15/97
The United Nations Children?s Fund reports that ?commercial sexual exploitation is damaging children in virtually every country of the world.?
WT 9/1/97
According to a United Nations forecast, soon half the population of sub-Saharan Africa will be living in absolute poverty.
WT 9/15/97
Today, poverty exists in every part of the world. According to the United Nations, the greatest concentration of poverty is found in Africa. Stated a UN press release in 1996: ?Fully half of all Africans are impoverished.? Despite increasingly harsh economic circumstances, an ever-growing number of Africans are applying Bible principles in life and are faithfully serving God, confident that he will sustain them. Consider some examples from one part of our troubled world.
And in the same issue
?The ten horns? depict the militarized political powers holding sway on earth. Though they now have a spiritually adulterous relationship with Babylon the Great, her time is short. This world?s political element will destroy false religion, and ?the wild beast??the United Nations?will have a principal role with ?the ten horns? in devastating her. What an occasion for praising Jehovah!?Revelation 19:1-6.
There are plenty more of these. There are probably 2550 hits under search of the United Nations (and I didn?t search under UN) with by far the majority of the mentions taking potshots at it for failing to bring world peace. I think this makes your point Norm. Thanks, it was a fun research project.
Splash splash
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
considering the simple fact that the watchtower society has declared the united nations an organization lead by satan, it certainly devote a lot of attention to what the un do and say.
*** w99 5/1 15 "let the reader use discernment" ***.
the watchtower definitively said: the whole tendency of the league of nations is to turn the people away from god and from christ, and it is therefore a desolating thing, the product of satan, and an abomination in the sight of god.
Norm is stomping in puddles again. Here, let me help...
From the WT 99 cd-rom
WT 5/1/99
Subsequently, in its December 15, 1929, issue, on page 374, The Watchtower definitively said: ?The whole tendency of the League of Nations is to turn the people away from God and from Christ, and it is therefore a desolating thing, the product of Satan, and an abomination in the sight of God.? So in 1919 ?the disgusting thing? appeared. In time, the League gave way to the United Nations. Jehovah?s Witnesses have long exposed these human peace organizations as disgusting in God?s sight.
9 The preceding article summarized a clarified view of much of Matthew chapters 24 and 25. Is some clarification in order regarding ?the disgusting thing standing in a holy place?? Apparently so. Jesus? prophecy closely links the ?standing in a holy place? with the outbreak of the foretold ?tribulation.? Hence, even though ?the disgusting thing? has long existed, the link between its ?standing in a holy place? and the great tribulation should affect our thinking. How so?
10 God?s people once understood that the first phase of the great tribulation began in 1914 and that the final part would come at the battle of Armageddon. (Revelation 16:14, 16; compare The Watchtower, April 1, 1939, page 110.) So we can understand why it was once thought that the latter-day ?disgusting thing? must have stood in a holy place soon after World War I.
11 However, in later years we have come to see things differently. On Thursday, July 10, 1969, at the ?Peace on Earth? International Assembly in New York City, F. W. Franz, then vice president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, gave an electrifying talk. In reviewing the previous understanding of Jesus? prophecy, Brother Franz said: ?The explanation was given that the ?great tribulation? had begun in 1914 C.E. and that it was not allowed to run its full course then but God stopped World War I in November of 1918. From then on God was allowing an interval for the activity of his anointed remnant of elect Christians before he let the final part of the ?great tribulation? resume at the battle of Armageddon
WT 8/1/99
?All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.??Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948
This although quoting the Un is making the point that the Un cannot bring human equality. The fact the the WT/GB does not bring equality to women and children either is beside the point?
WT 9/15/99
According to a United Nations report, 1.3 billion people in the developing world have to survive on the equivalent of less than one U.S. dollar a day.
WT 12/1/99
?Apocalypse is today not merely a biblical depiction but it has become a very real possibility.??Javier Pérez de Cuéllar, former secretary-general of the United Nations
poking fun at the UN again for their interpretaion of the word Apocalypse.
WT 4/1/98
(Based on 1994 Demographic Yearbook, United Nations, New York 1996)
WT 8/1/98
Commenting on such trends, the United Nations report ?Impact of Armed Conflict on Children? states: ?More and more of the world is being sucked into a desolate moral vacuum.?
And?
This desire has led sincere people to attempt to bring a measure of justice to human society. To that end, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted in 1948 by the United Nations General Assembly, states: ?All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood
And?
The realization of this objective, as the preamble of the UN Declaration points out, would serve as ?the foundation of freedom, justice, and peace in the world.?
WT 9/15/98
The United Nations Children?s Fund calculates that in the last ten years, two million children have been killed in wars.
(I don?t know if this is the United nations or not.)
WT 2/1/97
According to the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, ?everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.? This includes a person?s right ?to change his religion or belief,? along with the freedom ?to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.??Article 18.
WT 7/15/97
The United Nations Children?s Fund reports that ?commercial sexual exploitation is damaging children in virtually every country of the world.?
WT 9/1/97
According to a United Nations forecast, soon half the population of sub-Saharan Africa will be living in absolute poverty.
WT 9/15/97
Today, poverty exists in every part of the world. According to the United Nations, the greatest concentration of poverty is found in Africa. Stated a UN press release in 1996: ?Fully half of all Africans are impoverished.? Despite increasingly harsh economic circumstances, an ever-growing number of Africans are applying Bible principles in life and are faithfully serving God, confident that he will sustain them. Consider some examples from one part of our troubled world.
And in the same issue
?The ten horns? depict the militarized political powers holding sway on earth. Though they now have a spiritually adulterous relationship with Babylon the Great, her time is short. This world?s political element will destroy false religion, and ?the wild beast??the United Nations?will have a principal role with ?the ten horns? in devastating her. What an occasion for praising Jehovah!?Revelation 19:1-6.
There are plenty more of these. There are probably 2550 hits under search of the United Nations (and I didn?t search under UN) with by far the majority of the mentions taking potshots at it for failing to bring world peace. I think this makes your point Norm. Thanks, it was a fun research project.
Splash splash
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
where can i find a complete list of all the books/publications that the jw's have put out?
including a list of how many versions there are of each book?
a personal favorite of mine...
http://home1.gte.net/angmar/tdbcat.htm
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
get yer watchtower cdroms going (i can't use mine cos my cdrom crapped itself)..... i need some stone cold wt quotes on the postion of disassociation.
whether a da person is treated the same as a df person?
are they to be shunned?
Questions From Readers WT 7/1/84
Once a person becomes one of Jehovah's Witnesses, is he always counted as such?
No, Jehovah's Witnesses are not like religions who hold, 'Once a member, always a member.' A small percentage of individuals choose to disassociate themselves from the Christian congregation or are expelled because they are unrepentant wrongdoers.
On one occasion many disciples turned away from Jesus and "would no longer walk with him." (John 6:66) The Bible also explains that if a Christian unrepentantly practices gross sin, the congregation is to 'remove the wicked man from among themselves' and 'quit mixing in company with him.'-1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
Thus, today, if a Christian falls into a course of sin, a committee of spiritually qualified elders meets with him. They want to see if he is repentant and can be readjusted. (Galatians 6:1) If not, the elders obey the Bible's direction to disfellowship the sinner so that the congregation will be "free from ferment."-1 Corinthians 5:7.
Or, as mentioned in John 6:66, occasionally a Witness on his own initiative will decide to leave the way of truth. He may even make known his decision after the committee begins to look into his wrongdoing. He may inform them in writing, or state before witnesses, that he wants to disassociate himself from the congregation and not be known as a Witness. Then it will no longer be necessary for the elders to continue their investigation. However, the elders would then make a brief announcement of his disassociation so that the congregation will know that he "went out from us." (1 John 2:19) They then will adhere to the inspired injunction 'not to receive such a one into their homes or say a greeting to him, so as not to become sharers in his wicked works
WT 4/15/91 But may the elders themselves take any initiative in approaching a disfellowshipped person? Yes. The Bible shows that mercy is expressed not simply by a negative holding back of punishment but often by positive acts... They leave it to the appointed shepherds to take the initiative to see if such a one is interested in returning.
11 It would not be fitting even for elders to take the initiative toward certain expelled ones, such as apostates, who 'speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.' These are 'false teachers who are trying to bring in destructive sects and to exploit the congregation with counterfeit words.' (Acts 20:30; 2 Peter 2:1, 3) The Bible also does not provide any basis for searching out disfellowshipped ones who are belligerent or who actively encourage wrongdoing.-2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 John 9-11; Jude 4, 11. In recent times there have been cases in which an elder happened to meet a disfellowshipped person. Where appropriate, the shepherd briefly outlined the steps to be taken for reinstatement. Some persons like this repented and were reinstated. Such joyful outcomes indicate that there may be disfellowshipped or disassociated ones who would respond to a merciful approach made by the shepherds. But how might the elders handle this matter? Once a year at most, the body of elders should consider whether there are such persons living in their territory. The elders would focus on those who have been expelled for over a year. According to the circumstances, if it is appropriate, they would assign two elders (hopefully ones familiar with the situation) to visit such an individual. No visit would be made on any who evidence a critical, dangerous attitude or who have made it known that they want no help.-Romans 16:17, 18; 1 Timothy 1:20; 2 Timothy 2:16-18. The two shepherds could telephone to ask about making a brief visit, or they could stop by at a suitable time. During the visit, they need not be stern or even cool but should warmly reflect their merciful concern. Instead of reviewing the past case, they could discuss Bible texts such as Isaiah 1:18 and <G<Þ>G>Isa <G<Ü>G>55:6, 7 and James 5:20. If the person is interested in returning to God's flock, they could kindly explain what steps he should take, such as reading the Bible and publications of the Watch Tower Society and attending meetings at the Kingdom Hall.
15 These elders will need wisdom and discernment to determine whether there is indication of repentance and whether a follow-up visit would be advisable. They should bear in mind, of course, that some disfellowshipped persons will never be 'revived to repentance.' (Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 2:20-22) After the visit, the two would give a brief oral report to the Congregation Service Committee. They, in turn, would inform the body of elders at their next meeting. The elders' merciful initiative will have reflected God's view: "'Return to me, and I will return to you,' Jehovah of armies has said."-Malachi 3:7
As long as someone is disfellowshipped or disassociated, we need to follow the instruction: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man." (1 Corinthians 5:11) But this Biblical directive should not affect our view of Christian family members who live with the disfellowshipped person. Ancient Jews reacted so strongly to tax collectors that their hatred was extended even to the family of the tax collector. Jesus did not endorse that. He said that a sinner who refused help was to be treated "just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector"; he did not say that Christian family members were to be so treated.-Matthew 18:17.
18 We ought to be especially supportive of the family members who are faithful Christians. They may already face pain and obstacles because of living at home with an expelled person who may actually discourage their spiritual pursuits. He may prefer not to have Christians visit the home; or if they do come to see the loyal family members, he may not have the courtesy to keep away from the visitors. He may also impede the family's efforts to go to all Christian meetings and assemblies. (Compare Matthew 23:13.) Christians thus disadvantaged truly deserve our mercy.-2 Corinthians 1:3, 4.
This could be just so much crap even if it is up to date which I do not know. The WT/GB has been known to publish one thing for 'public' consumption and tell Witnesses through the 'elder' arrangement a whole other thing. We know this is true of the blood issue, the alternative service issue, and child custody issues. So go figure.
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
i have found something interesting in the danish new world translation of the holy scriptures.
and i would like to know, how the other nw-translations render the same verse.. it's the "famous" words in jeremiah 29:10, which in the nwt's rendering usually (at least as far as i know) seem to depict and strengthen the seventy years as a period of captivity, instead of servitude under babylonian supremacy!.
english.
the Jay P Green Interlinear Bible 1985 (there is a newer edition I do not have) says: 'For so says Jehovah, When according to My mouth seventy years have been fulfilled for Babylon, I will visit you...'
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
