Posts by had

39

RE: Ozzie's post on "Restrictions"

by had_enough in

jw
friends

i have a question about restrictions on df'd persons wanting to come back to the org.. i finally joined here on mar 26, after reading posts for about a month, with telling my story first.

what moved me to join in was reading ozzie's post on mar.23(i think), about "restrictions" regarding reproofs, probations, and df'ing.

i appreciated his comments and was so glad when he brought the subject up.

had_enough

To LoveDubs:

Thank you for your excellent answers on the prodigal son and actions of the elders. You said so many things that I feel and know on this subject and only one who has gone through it can really understand what hurt and humiliation the whole process causes especially for those who don't choose to be df'd by being non-repentant. I would have appealed my case on that grounds but just the thought of having to go through that whole gruelling, humiliating, painfull experience again sitting in front of 3 men (or is it more in an appeal case?) just was too much at that emotionally difficult time for me. So I took my lumps and sat through the meetings alone, feeling such despair I don't know how I did it now when I think back on it.

Good Grief, I just read Humble's last response and I was ready to go through the monitor.

Humble says: " But if they are stubborn in following their ways and want to continue their wrongdoing, then we follow what Paul instructed." I could sit here for days writing about ones who have been df'd even though expressing repentance but because the elders feel they need to make an example of that one or perhaps the person has slipped more than once they df him anyway.

And as for asking God's spirit to guide them and then that's their backing for df'ing a person, that is a typical WT answer. I've heard it many times before (haven't we all?)

If God's spirit is directing the elders decision why is there a need for an appeal arrangement? How can God's spirit direct them to make mistakes in their committee judgements?

One sister I know told her story to a CO and he was shocked and said that should never have happened, but nothing was ever done to fix it and now it's too late for her son to come back.

Thanks for all your supportive answers. It always helps to know we're not alone.

had enough

39

RE: Ozzie's post on "Restrictions"

by had_enough in

jw
friends

i have a question about restrictions on df'd persons wanting to come back to the org.. i finally joined here on mar 26, after reading posts for about a month, with telling my story first.

what moved me to join in was reading ozzie's post on mar.23(i think), about "restrictions" regarding reproofs, probations, and df'ing.

i appreciated his comments and was so glad when he brought the subject up.

had_enough

Humble:
My post is dealing solely with the restrictions placed on a disfellowshipped person before reinstatement.

I was promted to write about this because of Ozzie's Mar 23 post on "Restrictions" which dealt with mostly restrictions for those publicly reproved and on probabtion, but also touched on disfellowshipped ones before reinstatement. That's what I was resonding to.

To clarify about the family member sitting with the df'd one, I was referring to a family member not living in the same home with the non-disfellowshipped family member such as a married son. Not sitting with a df'd son, no longer living in his mother's home, but wanting to return to the meetings, was a restriction placed on one family in our hall. The elders told her he was to sit by himself at one end of the aisle and she at the other or elsewhere...and this was the general rule not made special for his case.

Ozzie in his Mar 23rd post, also stated that a df'd person [quote]"is not entitled to receive a copy of ‘Kingdom Ministry’. If there is a believing spouse, they cannot share the KM, for that would be fellowshipping spiritually on the part of the JW spouse! So the DF person is expected to attend the Service Meetings (as a sign of repentance) yet not be able to follow the meeting outline in the Kingdom Ministry, nor be able, if they wished, to prepare for the meeting." [end quote]

These are some of the kind of restrictions I was referring to. My bone of contention is that, a person, having suffered the loss of contact with family (not living in the same home) and with close friends while df'd, is punished more than enough. Why continue this punishment for whatever the amount of time required, AFTER the person expresses his repentance by coming to the meeting in the first place?

How can looking forward to that, be encouragement to come back to the meetings? A df'd person returning to the meetings is already showing humility in coming back in the first place. Being treated like that is like being kicked in the stomach and gasping for air. That's not how I picture Jesus treating a lost sheep when it finds its way back into the fold.

Humble: I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing you.. I'm not.. I appreciate your efforts in answering me.

Unanswered: Please don't feel you're butting in..I appreciate any contribution to this thought.
You said "the WT history shows that you don't have to spread your ideas around to be disfellowshipped. it only takes mentioning something in confidence to a close friend and having that come to the attention of the elders to be df'ed..."

I totally agree with that as I'm sure many other do who have had firsthand experience or just knowledge of it.
That's why I feel my hands are tied now because I want to ask these and many many more question and discuss them but I know I can't right now because of family circumstances so I just sit, inactive, hoping someday things will change and my still-active family won't be threatened with banned association with me because I've expressed non-belief in some teaching.

Sorry if I sound like I'm harping on one subject but this "only touches the tip of the iceberg" for me and it still hurts so much.

had enough

39

RE: Ozzie's post on "Restrictions"

by had_enough in

jw
friends

i have a question about restrictions on df'd persons wanting to come back to the org.. i finally joined here on mar 26, after reading posts for about a month, with telling my story first.

what moved me to join in was reading ozzie's post on mar.23(i think), about "restrictions" regarding reproofs, probations, and df'ing.

i appreciated his comments and was so glad when he brought the subject up.

had_enough

Humble:

I appreciate your effort at trying to help me understand.

You replied:
"First of all, it is true that the discipline is being disfellowshipped, but can the elders in the judicial committee read the persons' heart. Of course not, only Jehovah can do that. Anyone can cry and say that they have changed their ways. Restrictions allow elders to see the persons' true motives..."

I agree, the elders cannot read a person's heart and anyone can say that they have changed their ways, but how can they tell the person's 'true motives' by not allowing that person any contact with others at or away from the meetings?

How appealing and welcoming does it sound to that person to be told, "we want you to come back to the meetings and be part of our spiritual family again, but... you can't talk to anyone or sit with anyone"

What good can come from heaping more flaming coals on their heads once they have made the effort to come back to the meetings?

A family member is not even allowed to sit with that person.

I know I'm not alone on feeling this way, not only by reading comments from exJWs on this board but also those from JWs still attending as well as from expressions from many active witnesses made to me personally or passed on from someone else who heard it.

had enough

39

RE: Ozzie's post on "Restrictions"

by had_enough in

jw
friends

i have a question about restrictions on df'd persons wanting to come back to the org.. i finally joined here on mar 26, after reading posts for about a month, with telling my story first.

what moved me to join in was reading ozzie's post on mar.23(i think), about "restrictions" regarding reproofs, probations, and df'ing.

i appreciated his comments and was so glad when he brought the subject up.

had_enough

Hi all:

I have a question about restrictions on df'd persons wanting to come back to the org.

I finally joined here on Mar 26, after reading posts for about a month, with telling my story first. What moved me to join in was reading Ozzie's post on Mar.23(I think), about "Restrictions" regarding reproofs, probations, and df'ing. I appreciated his comments and was so glad when he brought the subject up. It touched an exposed nerve in me yet to heal.

What has always been unanswered to me, when I've asked others about this, is this....

When reading of the 'prodigal son', we know he returned to his father repentant and humble, and the father ran down the road to greet his son with open arms and tears. Then a feast of rejoicing was prepared for his welcome. He was NOT told to come in after the meal was started, sit in a corner, eat alone and not talk to anyone until he proved himself. The fact that he had returned humble and repentant was enough to extend a loving welcome to him.

Why is this same principle not applied to those wanting to return to the org? Isn't it enough humiliation to walk through those doors having everyone look at you knowing your sins... and they DO know even if they're not supposed to.

I don't mean to suggest that everyone returning should be given a huge banquet etc. etc. but just the expression of "welcome back" could do more good than what all the humiltiation and pouring of salt on the open wound, produces.

Have I missed the point here or are df'd ones not worthy of being welcomed back until they have endured not only being cut off from all family and friends, but also the humiliation of further restrictions placed on them at the meetings before reinstatement. To try and ignore the stinging hurt of having to come into the meeting after the prayer, look for a couple of empty seats so no one will have to be embarrased to sit next to you, having ones around you look up at you but look through you or look away without expression and then leave quickly before the closing prayer is said.

This treatment is said to be deserved because you sinned and have to prove yourself humble to be reinstated.

How does that fit in with the 'prodigal son' example?
How does that apply to a da'd person who just got discouraged and couldn't handle the pressure to 'perform' all the WTS requirements and resigned, and now has a change of heart, matures or whatever and wants to return?
Is this the 'loving' treatment Jesus expected us to inflict on 'lost sheep'?

I have more comments and questions for later on treatment of these ones at a funeral (I've been told conflicting rules)....but I'll leave that for another time.

I'd truly appreciate any help, encouragement, enlightenment, anything.. on this sore spot of mine!

Thanks all!

had enough

6

Please help!!!!!!! dateline NBC

by stephenw20 in

jw
friends

i just called dateline and this is an ongoing story............. please please everyone...send them a letter about the corruptness of the society...........if 6 million jewish livves are important waht about 6 million others with their children.. i appeal to all send a letter about all realted subjects..... sed it to .

[email protected].

attn richard greenberg /jehovahs witnesses.

had_enough

Hi Stephenw20!

Thanks so much for letting us know about this!!!!

I heard a couple of weeks ago that Dateline was going to do something on Witnesses but I didn't know what or when, and logging on to NBC website didn't tell me anything either. I thought I'd missed it.

Looking forward to hearing your update. We'll be sure to watch.

had_enough

23

My story!!!

by VeniceIT in

jw
friends

well i haven't really posted my story here, for one reason it was too painful to write out.

well, i finally did go and write it up.

it's pretty long so i'll just link it.. http://www.geocities.com/veniceexjw/mystory.html.

had_enough

Hi Venice:

I just read your story and the Tacoma News article. It just boggles my mind how so much garbage is going on.

I was impressed how you stood up to the "committee" and were prepared with much info for them, even though they ignored it and DF'd you anyway.

Could you give me an idea of what you prepared in advance, to hit them with?

I'd appreciate a few tidbits.

Thanks for any help you can give.

had_enough

35

Feeling desperate................

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

please listen.

im not the first to go through this, i wont be the last.. i was raised in the truth as a result of my mum starting a study when i was 4 years old.

that was in 1968. the hysteria of a 1975/armageddon was just beginning to take root and the sister who studied with my mum was 100% sure of it.

had_enough

Hi Nicolaou:

As many have already said, I too can feel the pain and anguish you are going through. You have received a lot of rational suggestions from ones like Angharad, Simon, Expatbrit and RHD just to name a few of the many good replies.

These suggestions are without the hysteria and lies, that those still deeply entrenched in the WBTS would say you will find here. Some have been able to make a clean break from the chains and some of us are still caught in the middle because of family ties too hard to break right now.

Angharad said about your wife,: "I think the best thing you can do, if she is still convinced of the truth is to introduce ideas to her very gently and not to bombard everything on her at once."

I have one suggestion:

I found a particularly interesting 'my story' posted on Randy's site of one brother like yourself you found a way to help his family learn what he learned about the WTBS without preaching and causing them to become defensive and close their minds to him.

He did it in a slow, methodical, questioning way having them think and find answers for themselves to his questions.

His story is at: http://www.freeminds.org/psych/exithelp.htm

And some examples of subjects and the way he handled them are on:
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/exithelp2.htm

I found this very helpful although my children are grown and married so my opportunities are more limited. Maybe it will help you in your situation.

Have courage and patience.

Love from:

had enough

8

DF`ing Committees Need a Chaperone.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

i remember, when i was but a lad, how a young sister of 15 was publicly reproved to the whole congregation for being sexually experienced.. a couple of years later, the same thing occurred with another young lady, who was forced to sob in front of everyone.. even then, with all my j-dub imprinting, i recall feeling outraged at the congregations treatment of these girls.

i felt that the way that they had been dealt with was far more intrusive and abusive than anything that they may have experienced in their first sexual forays.. i recall feeling very deeply that it was very wrong for a female to have to submit herself to the interrogations of 3 middle aged men, whilst she had to be alone in her guilt and misery as she endured their probing.. in later years, my ex-wife had to go through this experience.

ok, she was no shrinking violet, but again i felt most indignant on her behalf.. surely, this is not right?

had_enough

Good comments again englishman.

I remember having a social evening with a few couples and the elder went into great detail to all of all the personal questions they have to ask a sister, much to the embarassment of his young wife.

Why the need to know what she was wearing? Where did he put his hands? Were they on the outside of her clothes or underneath? Was she willing and eager? and more that I don't care to elaborate on.

All I could think of was how humiliating and degrading for any young sister. Little did I realize then, that I would be sitting across from him several years later having him ask me those questions in front of 2 other men. Part of me knew that if I didn't answer I would be considered as unrepentant and rebellious and the other part felt was convinced I'd be disobeying Jehovah for not being humble.

And to make it even worse, the questioning wasn't with a loving fatherly, shepherding, 'we want to help you' attitude but almost like a sneering 'you're just dirt' way. And that's what I (and I'm sure most everyone having to go through that) felt.

And on top of that, it didn't seem to matter that I was repentant. Like LDH said they needed to make an example of me. They admitted that too many in the congregation would be asking why I was "not being dealt with" (because I left my husband, who was an elder, as well...it didn't matter what he was like, or had done, or what had caused me to leave).

So needless to say after a decade, or so, I still carry the scars and it's taking a long time to put it behind me.

But I realize, this venting is all part of my healing and it just keeps getting better.

Thanks englishman for making the observation that at least a sister should have another sister there for support. Why don't they just leave out all the lurid details anyway? What purpose do they serve..the deed is done isn't it?

had enough

7

Welcome all lurkers

by OlderTom in

jw
friends

hello lurkers.

we sometimes forget that often people read these posts but are afraid to post.. greetings al.

the watchtower police cannot trace your post like in the movies.

had_enough

Hi Older Tom:

I add to your welcome! I too "lurked" for about a month holding back by indoctrinated fear of "Will what I read corrupt me?", or "Will the Watchtower be able to trace this and then here we go again with committee meetings?!!!"

I can add to the other posts that all I found here was courage to speak up at least this far. I still have a long way to go. But I have a couple of great friends who even though are still witnesses they have helped me to open up and express my feelings without condemnation or shrinking back...truly a rarity from what I have read of others experiences who confided their doubts to the wrong person.

What I have learned here is that I am not alone! So anyone reading these experiences can feel free to add theirs too or ask for help. I know all will try to help with ideas or an empathetic expression.

Welcome to all

had enough

36

Meetings

by OrangeBlossom in

jw
friends

do you think the wts will ever reduce the number of meetings per week, maybe drop one night a week?

just curious!

it seems that everyone is so whipped from working all day, i really think that's why there is such a drop in meeting attendance.

had_enough

Hi momoftwo:

I also had to try and explain that picture to my two. I guess the simple point was supposed to be that anyone who didn't worship Jehovah will be destroyed, even their children. But how do you explain that picture to a 2 or 3 year old who asks "what's going to happen to that baby?" It was a difficult picture to deal with.

had enough

had_enough

Posts by had_enough