oompa: Your last example is in no way similar to what has happened at the WTBTS over certain dates. A more appropriate example may be: What if the British did not arrive when Paul Revere announced? Would you renounce him as a heretic - tar and feather him? Was he not an agent of the government, someone who should know? I want you to really try to place yourselves in the shoes of the GB, and imagine you thought the end of the world would occur in 1975. What do you do? You say that the WTBTS ruined many lives...? How? Jesus said "pick up your torture stake (aka cross) and follow me"? Whoever loses their life on his behalf, saves it. Also, what bad thing can happen if you are to suffer for Christ? Does not the promise Jesus said about providing all material substance needed apply? The problem with all these people who cry about their lives being ruined are not truly "throwing" their trust in God - they retain a worldly viewpoint of "material" possessions. God and Jesus made clear that you would lose everything for his name, and by doing so, you would gain everything later. Regardless of what you may think, there are a host of people who are still JW's who sold everything before 1975 - and who give District Convention experiences about how it was the best thing they ever did - even though they don't have a penny to their name. Who is following Christ - your friends who sit and apostatize over things lost in their lives - or the current JW giving everything of themselves (only thing left) to teach people about the bible and good news of God's kingdom...?
johnnyc
JoinedPosts by johnnyc
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193
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc ini have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.
in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.
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193
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc ini have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.
in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.
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johnnyc
megs: can you send some links? I don't mind looking at anything, and I have yet to study what you are referring to.
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11
What prompts one to become a Jehovah's Witness?
by Quirky1 ini know there are many here that were born into the religion and there are those who have family that were or are involved and that usually sparks an interest.. what about those who become interested by their campaining?
what influenced others here to become a jehovah's witness?.
what influenced you?.
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johnnyc
I was raised a JW, yet, upon personal study found that much of what JW teach is supported by first and second century Christian wrings - such as Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, Ignatius. It is odd how the Catholic Church views them as their "Church Fathers", yet they do not believe many things stated by them in their extensive writings. Doing a study on the early church is very supportive of JW doctrine and beliefs.
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193
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc ini have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.
in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.
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johnnyc
Deputy Dog: The link you sent me has a major contradiction. It starts by saying that once the WT found out that Johannes Greber was into spiritualistic practices, they discontinued using his quote - yet then later states that they knew from the start. Why can't it be as simple as some at the WTBTS knew, and others did not. When they ALL realized the issue, they immediately stopped using his quotes???? Its like all you can do is think of the negative people - come on.
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193
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc ini have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.
in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.
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johnnyc
Anti-Christ: I did not compare Jesus with the WT. I said "Jesus Disciples". And I believe the examples are very similar, as Jonah himself was upset about being made to look foolish for he prophesied something that did not occur. If you don't like that example, make a comment on the example on the fact 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians all thought the end would occur in their time - and peached such.
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193
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc ini have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.
in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.
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johnnyc
I guess people aren't getting my point. Lets start backward a bit. I think everyone will agree that the governing body members believed 1975 (for instance) was a date which could have seen the conclusion of this system. From a motive of pure greed of wanting to stay in their comfortable positions of power, why, oh why, would they promote a date which would make themselves look very foolish (not to mention the inevitable decline in WT membership)if they did not truly believe what they pronounced..? I think this is especially true since they used a date which was right around the corner, that they themselves would have to "clean up" if it did not occur - unlike picking a date many years from then. There was way more "downside" than "upside" if they were operating from a purely "power-hungry" position - as some have mentioned. Raymond Franz has stated that none of the GB members had bad motives while going through all this, and they all very much believed everything they announced. Perhaps they are wrong, but being wrong and deceitful are very different things. More importantly, to prove fraud, you would have to present evidence that the GB thought they were not correct about a date DURING the time they were promoting it - and chose to do so anyway. That is the true definition of fraud and deceit. Not what you here would like to claim it to be.
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193
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc ini have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.
in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.
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johnnyc
insearchoftruth: What if Jonah were to have created a document by which he announced (as God's prophet) that Nineveh was to be destroyed? Yet that didn't happen. For that matter, what about the Apostles and disciples of Jesus time who taught the end would occur in THEIR generation? I can go all day with references to seemingly "failed" predictions. You ask, what would a JW think of reading those Awakes or WT's that suppose the end would occur in 1975. I say, what about any Christian reading the Christian Greek Scriptures to which it was clearly said the end would occur around that time? Paul encouraged Christians back then NOT TO GET married since the end was so close...
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193
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc ini have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.
in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.
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johnnyc
leavingwt: Thank you for your references, however, as you probably know, the WTBTS has come out and stated many times that they are NOT prophets who prophecy, and they use quotations around that word to point to a limited role of their operation - namely, pronouncing the coming of Jehovah's day. Prophets of old would often announce coming destruction. Do you need me to post this info, or do you know about it already? I do agree they probably should not have even used prophet with the quotations - but they did clarify that, and they no longer use that term.
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193
Deceptive or just wrong?
by johnnyc ini have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.
in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.
however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.
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johnnyc
I have been virtually non-stop studying everything I can get my hands on with regards the WTBTS, and "apostate" literature and information. In all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical. However, I do find about 20% (if I have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning. Of that 20%, a good portion is based upon "failed prophecy" - 1879, 1914, 1925, 1975 etc. The problem with much of what I read is the conclusion which the information is trying to promote - namely, the WTBTS is deceptive or fraudulent in its claims. However, what does the WTBTS gain in promoting such dates as possible conclusions to this system, if they are known to be untruthful representations? After all, it is much more of an embarrassment when these dates come and go without event, and has had a much more negative effect on organization membership numbers....thereby working against what it would seemingly be trying to do - increase membership. If anyone has a legal mind here, as you well know, to prove fraud you must prove motive and improper gain in an action. Where does the WTBTS gain in a failed expectation? From what I can see, they loose memberships and are left way worse than if they never said anything at all. In fact, you could say that when they make such predictions, the motive could only be that they honestly believe such. Unlike Mormons (Joseph Smith etc), the WTBTS has never claimed to be a "prophet". They only claim that they try to interpret prophecy left by others in the bible. Therefore, these dates should not ever be viewed as "prophecy's unfulfilled" but rather "failed interpretation". There is a huge difference between those statements.
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91
Disfellowshiped Last Night - Elder Question
by johnnyc ini know some of you know me by my posts...as someone very much on the "fence".
recently, i had made an effort to start coming back to meetings after being inactive for 2+ years.
during that time, i did have a prescription drug problem following an injury.
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johnnyc
Where else would I go? Regardless of many issues I may have over certain things the WTBTS, the more important teachings are in line with how I view God would want his followers to act. I can't see how God would find many holidays acceptable for his followers to celebrate. I don't believe in the Trinity. I don't believe in hell. I don't believe everyone is going to heaven. etc, etc. If you know of another group out there who has similar beliefs, without some of the other (more minor) problems associated with imperfect human direction - let me know! I say "minor" because like it or not, the doctrines taught by JW's are much more important than the indiscretions of their organization. Also, I can see that many times God has used sources which have been very much mistaken on a great many of things. In truth, no one can have a serious debate to prove that God's channel should be without error - never has that occurred. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps members of the GB don't make it, yet his faithful servants still do? Even though Moses was considered very faithful, many Hebrews made it to the promise land whereas he did not. People hold their responsibility directly to God, and cannot hide behind the good or bad actions of another.