Posts by reniaa

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

John 14:16-21
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth . The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him . But you know him, for he lives with you and will be [ c ] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father , and you are in me , and I am in you . 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
Reniaa: Who is the Counselor or "Spirit of Truth"?

Are you trying to draw me into a conversation about holy spirit sacolton and how trinity worshipers think it can take over our bodies and have no regard to free will? indwelling ewwww

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi jgnat i'm not very good at tables lol so will have to address your points individually although some have already been answered by Josephmalik in a more scholar-like way than I could acheive if you check back on his post:)

1/ Mark 10, 17-25

The Rich Young Man
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' [ d ] "
20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"
24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is [ e ] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

If you look at the whole story here is a wealthy man he apparently has great wealth, So would how would a wealthy man have been then would he be with servants and his people around him dressed in the clothing of the wealthy? what then does he do? he literally runs to jesus and falls to his knees in front of him here is someone overwhelm by what he sees this is a sort of worship and all the people around jesus see the man of great wealth do this, so jesus before answering the mans question says "No one is Good except God alone" To me this is jesus showing great humility making sure that proper praise goes to God and and then he looks at the man with love so I would be surprised if jesus could feel this way if he had the motivations you apply jgnat. how could the wealthy man inspire love in jesus if he was being self-serving?

Jesus asked the man to follow him but does this imply jesus is God to answer this I will have to put a whole chapter lol

1 Corinthians 3
On Divisions in the Church
1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" [a] ; 20 and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." [b] 21 So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas [c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

we can see follow is used to show they are all following the one purpose and the Order of authority is given us, jesus, then God, jesus is the foundation stone but God is what makes it Grow! Jesus is part of Gods building!

So in following jesus they are following Jehovah but again it doesn't imply Jesus is God just that jesus is Gods Worker bringing us to God, his mediator.

NEXT we discuss Satan I think Satan is many things but stupid is definitely not one of them, I think he proved his evil cleverness in the garden of eden. You say a currupt God demands worship? So are you saying here jesus is sayng "no satan I'm not gonna worship you! You should worship me?" Or is he humbly declining Satan and saying "Worship My father" in effect which fits more with Jesus's personality.

To Jews for jesus to call himself son of God was blasphemous enough but its obvious some did think he ment God too but that was quickly nipped in the bud because jesus corrects it..and makes sure they know he is claiming to be Gods son only. I think it's very important here that he does clarify his relationship to God here.

AS to the use of gods josephmalik I think answered that point better than I could in an earlier post on this thread lol can't find it atm.

The point I'm making of the two witnesses is that Jesus is lying if 'one being' can be two witnesses but if your saying "oh nope the trinity means they are still separate" then I still argue because the separateness implied for them to be two witnesses means completely separate not separate parts of a whole. And again if the holy spirit was seperate person of the whole Jesus is wrong not to mention it here but if the holy spirit is just Jehovah's active force it couldn't possibly be a witness and so rightly isn't mentioned.

Reniaa

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi isaacaustin

I am not an ancient language scholar so had to goto source to see if what you say regarding 'one' echad was correct as you say it,

Of the 943 times (by my count) echad is translated "one," it is translated to indicate a single character 901 times. In the remaining instances when it is involved in describing a group effort, it still means one.
In reference to the Shema, the claim that the linking of the word Elohim and echad in the same statementindicate plurality of God is totally unfounded. So much bias has been infused into that statement that the accuracy of it is negligible. It becomes a Trinitarian doctrinal statement instead of a Biblical description of God. Deuteronomy 6:4 is speaking of ONE WHAT? ONE GOD! This is made clear by the scribe's reply to Jesus' statement that the Shema was the most important commandment in Mark 12:32, "Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he." If elohim or echad are referring to more than one of anything, they are referring to more than one GOD, which would make Trinitarians polytheists, or at least tritheists. Remember, for elohim to indicate any plurality, it would indicate a plurality of gods; not one God in three but three gods. If the Bible could be quoted as saying one gods, Trinitarians may have a legitimate argument, but that very statement would be contradictory. It would have to declare "one Trinity

http://www.answering-christianity.com/echad.htm

If I answer this personally the Jews are massive scholars of their bible if there was a way of applying plurality to both this word and elohim in this context they would have picked up on it, Jews who know there language well absolutely laugh of the idea of making it plural given the whole context and usage, people who don't understand their language well misapply it this way. to try and justify trinity.

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

So despite never mentioning he is God and obeiance/worship been a word all through the bible given to kings, appostles, moses and yes jesus etc, you think you can say that people doing this to jesus proves he is God?

The sheer amount it is used really shoots your saying 'whole jesus must be God if he lets people worship him.'in the foot

I have through reading like slappy come to a greater understanding of the trinity, unlike slappy it has made me even more sceptical of it,

The constant reminders that they are 3 separate beings means that God is lying in OT when he says he is one God. All jews/muslims know that this is none negotiable, and they in this respect haven't changed from before Jesus, Jesus was a jew that believed in One God, why make it a commandment only to change it?

God a not a title to be shared between 3 separate beings it is the Supreme being it describes what God is!, Did all 3 appear magically at the same time as separate people or if jesus did appear second can God just say you are God to Jesus and make it so? think on this! The bible is not trying to make us believe in the trinity it is trying to show us the relationship between Father and son. Also remember the bible isn't written for scholars its written for average joe to understand and he would walk away going 'OOoh Jesus is Gods son!" The bible God's inspired word is telling us what the nearest definition to jesus's and jehovah's relationship is, Believe it!.

If your have to argue special circumstances to make certain words come to different conclusions then you really need to relook at your conclusions...

Renia

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

Thank you josephmalik

your indepth posts have helped me understand better the whole situation in dealing with Jesus the question of god and divinity.

Always I could never understand with the ones who say he is God and revealed it most as he got resurrected, why then in Acts onwards he is still God's servant and God's son especially when we can see holy spirit working on people, it more than anything else doesn't gel with the doctrine of the trinity, if there was a time for there to be any credibility to the trinity it would had to have proof texts in Acts onwards but none, no reference to 3-1 or 1-3 or any of the unbiblical expressions people have to use to describe trinity because there is nothing in the bible for them to use.

But back to your words on divinity

Because being equal in nature does not make one a Supreme Being like the LORD. And Paul did not even bother to discuss the nature of other Sons of God in existence having the same nature the WORD had. It is a nice thought but it does not make that person YHWH. In fact it is simply something that we can all have as well but it will not make us God. 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Joseph

cool reply :) and a scripture i can use in future.

Reniaa

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

ok lovelylil

but it still stands scripturally that he is God the son, totally equal in nature to the father.

you show me in one place in the bible were it says with that exact phrase 'God the Son' and i'll convert to trinity!

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi stAnn you didn't comment on the one thing I felt was important to say topeople who see Jesus as God but don't read his words of humility and love to his Father....

You say I am condemned for not worshiping jesus as God! I say from all that I read of jesus's great love for his father, just look at his actions at the moneylenders tables in the temple? Maybe people that by worshiping the son have lost their love for Jehovah and jesus loving his father as he does is seeing you do this, will not take this easily or happily.
12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

reniaa

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi lovedubs

I have never accepted the Trinity concept...not even as a Methodist. Why isnt it good enough that Jesus is GODS SON?? I think I could settle for that position.

I agree with you, there is nothing wrong with Gods son and jesus didn't seem to mind either he called himself it enough :)

hi lovelylil

She simply cannot grasp the simple truth that the father and the son together make up the one God of the Bible.

there you are actually going wrong because if you truly believed trinity you wouldn't have missed out the holy spirit but you did without thinking simply because we don't discuss the spirit because it's not there as part of a triune, there is no triune! the concept of trinity is a like trying to fit all the jigsaw pieces into the wrong places, trinity says all 3 parts are equal then it talks of one having greater position and giving authority but then it gives greater worship to the lesser position one, can't you see that it isn't even what it says of itself?

hi pubsinger

i'm still having difficulty accessing your page :(

hi isaac again

Exactly...son indicates equal nature. To use JW reasoning...a dog can not give birth to a cat...or a human to another species. Can a human pro-create deity?
So son reflects an identity.

Again like image a reflection is not the original, jesus is God's son his firstborn so is like God in ways we cannot even imagine but he still isn't God.

Jesus has been given authority by God so he can do these things, there are examples were authority has been given to lesser degrees to others and they have done things attributed to God like judging....rev 20: 4

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

hi again lovelylil

Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, something even most Jews stumbled on.

You can't say this and be agreement with a trinity whose only works if jesus gave up his godness to become man on earth can't you see the contradiction? you said "exact representation" before that I refer you to my above post about image and reflection jesus is still not God by these words just very like him, like you would expect of the Son. you quote heb 1:3

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

here is Jesus apparently returned to heaven and newly God and yet he is still on the righthand and subserviant to God?

hi isaac

you talk of sustaining but Jesus was given authority by God to do things including sustain and having things created THROUGH him if jesus is the originator why say through him?

hi snowbird

your revelation point doesn't allow that we can be subordinate to jesus recognising his glory and power and god given authority but God is higher, your scripture shows the lamb approaching the throne but not on it!.

hi josephmalik

I like your point others should read it especially on God, I had to reread it a few times though!, and you saw what I didn't on why lovelylil said equal when it isn't there, hmmm this thread has really maybe me dig down deep and think on things.

hi slappy

lovely scriptures and I agree we should look to Jesus, this whole thread is only to show I think Jesus didn't want us to think of him as God.

hi deputy dog

Do you think Satan had the power to fullfil these offers?

I answered the Good point in my previous post, All I know on this is jesus answered Satan as if Satan could offer these things!

This is not a problem. You have made a strawman here. Jesus says "the Father is greater" not God

No because the Father is referenced to God, the bible is very explicit on that, thats why those that worship Jesus as God, still have to deal with 'God the Father' although he is pushed into the OT away from hearts and minds.

and your trinity strawman is only oner if you accept any of the teaching of trinity which I don't.

Lets look at this in context.

John 10:25
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Can a human give eternal life to another? Can you do this reniaa?

29
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."

Funny how you leave verse 30 out.

31
The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

The Jews clearly understood what was happenning. Jesus was doing things that only God could do. Like giving people eternal life, among other things.

34
Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

It doesn't get much clearer than this

38
but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

I see no denial.

Some of these i answered already but jesus can give eternal life because God gave him the authority. you answer yourself in the scriptures above jesus only says he is the 'Son of god' and he does the works of his father.

An I refer you to a scripture were jesus talks us of us all being in each other with him and God. I refer you to john 17: 21-22

I did not lie I only see the scriptures as I do, which is just different to you. We each in the end really have to decide for ourselves on this.

Hi sacolton

So even the demons knew jesus was the son of God! well erm they didn't call him God?

hi josephMalik

I think you answered most points better than myself feel free to correct me if my ideas have got mixed up there were a lot of comments to sift through :)

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

hi isaacaustin you replied this to the hebrews scripture

Made so much better- from the point of his having emptied himself to the point of his re-glorification. Not rocket science there Reniaa

but my point still stands it was God that Made Jesus so acting as God to his subordinate.

Where did Jesus rebuke him Reniaa? That word is no where is this text. He simply asked a question as he always asked questions to put people into a position of having to think and commit. He emphasized God alone is good but in now way excluded himself from that class. He said nothing more than his question. If he made a comment stating that he himself is not good or that he himself is just a man then you would have a point. You are simply reading into Jesus words what you already believe.

its clear jesus is pointing out something he thinks the man has said wrong therefore rebuking by correcting but and this is for others who have remarked on the 'Good' here jesus is not saying of himself that he isn't good just that the proper respect is to give that sort of praise to God, so while many in the bible are called Good only God is the originator of this Goodness, basically jesus is just being his usual modest self and assigning what is properly given to his father.

I know many will want to side with isaac in this interpretation but thats leaves you with a choice...choose a arrogant jesus that in the middle of a random conversation wants to make sure someone knows he is God or a modest jesus who again as in all other places assigns all things to his father?

You said: you talk on my two witness text saying they are equal but isn't that contradictory after just looking at a scripture were jesus says "the father is greater than I"
No, it is not contradictory. I just showed you from Heb discussed above that 'greater' refers to position whereas 'better' refers to nature. George Bush is greater than you and I due to his position. he certainly is not better- as we are of the same nature.

Well I've looked up all the occurances of greater in the bible and i'm sorry but your interpretation is too narrow and the context would lend itself to the greater meaning simply that God is greater,

and a verse i use to show this misinterpretation is a famous one for trinitarians because it encompasses another argument that comes up

29

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [d] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

so here in saying the father is greater than all it clearly shows greater isn't a position but a declaration of god he is greater than all including jesus. but then in the same scriptures we have the oft taken out of context 'I and my father are one' given the context were jesus has just said the father is greater than all why would he say they are one as in equal as some would believe? if you look at the full purpose it clearly shows oneness in purpose not position. and to back this up look at other times this oneness is used....

Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

do i need to point out using the i am one rule as you apply would make us all God by this scripture so clearly we are talking oneness in agreement and purpose, this is something any could find its an easy rebuttal but I want to go further look at jesus's words here, his prayer, this is not a someone who wants the position his father has, he loves his father he wants us to know and love his father as he does!

You say I am condemned for not worshiping jesus as God! I say from all that I read of jesus's great love for his father, just look at his actions at the moneylenders tables in the temple maybe people that in worshiping the son have lost their love for Jehovah and jesus loving his father as he does is seeing you do this, will not take this easily or happily.

12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

isaac you then give me a mix of examples about people being one flesh etc but I wasn't sure why you went there because thats more my point than yours, that we all can be one and that has nothing to do with deity because we remain separate and of ourselves. You know one repeated theme as well is that all jesus has, has been given by God, the authority was given by God and this is refers to before jesus became a man and after his death, Jesus in accepting authority like a wife does in the headship scriptures is showing us that God is always his head therefore while Jesus is the IMAGE of God he isn't God, an image is never the original!

Now my words are not to lessen Jesus because he is wonderful he has saved us there is none above him accept God Jehovah, so in my book jesus is marvelous too he just isn't God, king yes, ruler yes mediator yes (why would God mediate himself or even need a mediator if he was Jesus?)

Reniaa

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

reniaa

Oh my word!!!! lol I spend one day with the kids and come back to 3 pages to answer lololol

I certainly touched a nerve :S from my brief reading of replies some are similar questions/replies so I can address them together, some are praising jesus as God and just expressions of personal faith so can be ignored because as you say I will never understand, and some scoffers that I will also feel free to ignore as they add nothing to the topic.

I will address as many as I can but its going to take a little time to write up my reply.

one thing though....

Mouthy I do not lie.....I have a severely disabled son who is 10 years old and this among other things has stopped me being a practising witness note that i've always said I've been inactive for over 10 years, Getting to meetings is very hard for me, so my one outlet for debating on God is these forums, I am pro-witness and my comments reflect this but they also reflect my believe in Jehovah as God alone. I do not count any time on these threads since i'm not a practising witness, for me this is just for enjoyment of debate and speaking about jehovah and jesus :)

And just to show you how serious I am on this, I personally swear to Jehovah that all I've said above is the truth and nothing but the truth.

and now you can continue to call me a liar but my conscience is clear on this point as Jehovah and Jesus for that matter know! maybe one day I will go on the ministry again but it will be outside and talking to people that are willing to listen.

Brb

Reniaa