Posts by reniaa

193

Deceptive or just wrong?

by johnnyc in

i have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.

in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.

however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.

reniaa

Can't you just take johnny at face value? why if someone doesn't agree with the opposing viewpoints immediately must you suddenly start doubting his veracity?

Certain people did the same to me and I found it offensive and put my back up having the opposite effect than intended on me, You force people into a defensive position. Johnny c has his own mind and from what I can see quite inteligent calm reasoning skills and you should respect him for that even if you don't agree with him.

Reniaa

P.s johnny your points on the mind control issue pretty much reflect my own too, I think it is one of the weaker arguments of those that no longer agree with Jw's

193

Deceptive or just wrong?

by johnnyc in

i have been virtually non-stop studying everything i can get my hands on with regards the wtbts, and "apostate" literature and information.

in all honesty, 80% at least is non-sense and over critical.

however, i do find about 20% (if i have to create a percentage reference) is appropriate in its line of reasoning and questioning.

reniaa

insearchoftruth: What if Jonah were to have created a document by which he announced (as God's prophet) that Nineveh was to be destroyed? Yet that didn't happen. For that matter, what about the Apostles and disciples of Jesus time who taught the end would occur in THEIR generation? I can go all day with references to seemingly "failed" predictions. You ask, what would a JW think of reading those Awakes or WT's that suppose the end would occur in 1975. I say, what about any Christian reading the Christian Greek Scriptures to which it was clearly said the end would occur around that time? Paul encouraged Christians back then NOT TO GET married since the end was so close... johnny c

hi johnny you make some good points that are interesting to read and you pretty much reflect my own thoughts on it. how can we condemn Jws for failed intepretations when the bible has many examples of this. On another thread I also brought up the fact that many other religions/faiths have also been over-enthusiastic on dates and certainly most of the bigger ones since Jesus if we condemn Jws for this we should also condemn 90% of the rest of christianity to the only difference is their times were further back in time.

Reniaa

45

did your wife run off and get pregnant?

by oompa in

jw
friends

or is it just me?...ya...it was wicked hard to deal with and i will never be the same...we had two cute kids at the time, very young, and she was out knocking on doors with a 35 hour a month average....i was never spiritual enough and hated service....and felt there were too many meetings......she truly just disappeared one day...no note...i found her thousands of miles away, not even in the us....ya how is that for weird?.....can anybody top that?....i lost 20 pounds the first month and was already skinny.....i still care for her greatly, and know she was truly mentally ill at the time......cause you would have to be crazy to leave a guy like me!!!

!.....lol.....that line has gotten me through a lot of tough times....she really was ill and on tons of meds.......oompa....this one should be on oprah.

again.....can anybody top that?....step up to the plate....i could not find anyone to help me with that, as nobody had had that happen to them.

reniaa

I won't tell you my story but a truely poignant one I remembered from my youth.

There was a young witness man, I can't remember now but he had quite a few problems, illnesses, I think he had epilesy/migraine issues and he had very slow speech and many thought he wasn't so clever but he was a good man if you took the time to know him you found he had the kindest sweetest heart and looked on the world with a kind of innocence that is so rare these days. He was only average looking and held down a good but honest job, although he was still quite young (about 20) it was kind of accepted that no one thought he would marry because of his problems, There was an older sister, nearly 40 with 3 children she was kind and lovely but married to a violent controlling man who eventually abandoned her and their 3 children and ran off with another woman. One messy divorce later she became strong for her kids and I think that had decided her never to marry again, I was only a teen when I remember a coach trip to an assembly, I think the young man had help her with luggage, he was kind like that and they had that friendliness that people have from spending years of being in the same congregation together, and inadvertantly ended up sitting near each other for the journey to and from the assembly chatting, I think that was the start of them falling in love.

1 year later to the shock/surprise of the congregation they got married and were quite the happiest couple I ever met, Some people were still a little disapproving because of the age difference and that his problems ment he wasn't so intelligent but he proved to be a loving husband and a good father to the children despite the age difference his oldest stepson was 14 and my friend, It was clear they adored each and she I think found his gentle ways soothing after her past, and within a couple of years she got pregnant. and I remember seeing him come in the hall with his newborn daughter in his arms, no man was happier or prouder than I saw him with his child and it was a surprise too because his wife was well into her 40's by now. They were a happy popular family

The child was one year old when one night her father must have gone downstairs to not disturb his wife while he had one of his bad migraines which he got a lot with his epilepsy, next morning when he was found, he had died peacefully while sitting in the chair, after the post mortem the doctors said his brain had been a ticking time-bomb no one new about and he was lucky to be alive so long. I never saw a couple more opposite or more in love and they had 3 happy years together and I remember the sister coming to my mums who was a particular friend just to talk about him and sometimes she cried a little but she smiled when their little daughter would run up to her, she was a lovely happy healthy child. I moved away from home and congregation, I saw the sister again years later with her young happy teenage daughter with her, she hadn't remarried.

It made me realise there can be real love stories out there!

Reniaa

343

Defence of watchtower society Links

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

reniaa

Reniaa
You say you disagree with shunning and would not partake in that. Do you realize that that would preclude you from rejoining the JWs (assuming you are truly as you claim) or if you are active would lead to your expulsion?

Hi isaac

Erm technically it could be! in practise I think it is unlikely At my last congregation before I left the org I only knew of one defellowshipped girl and she used to sit at the back I always said hi to her as she came in and I never got told off for it and did have coffee with her in town I still chat to her occasionally. I might believe the Jws doctrines but I've always been very independant in myself I love jehovah and I know that disfellowshipping wouldn't phase me, I'd just do my time and keep my prayers to Jehovah. He can read hearts and he alone knows that I love him and his son, Gods anger is what worries me more, disfellowshipping is nothing compared to that to me.

Thx for the explanation on trinity hun we will never agree but hey as you noticed I have been reading up so I understand you point of view better.

hi mouthy

you touch on disfellowshipping too, you mention the one thing that would give me a pause but I will make sure my kids get a full scriptural upbringing of love from jesus's point of view and how more flies are caught with honey, I am truly sad for your pain and would help if I could but I do still believe the Jws are right, just that they have enforced the shunning to harshly but in some ways I can understand the only times this forum has made me get annoyed is when some talk of subtefuge and misleading people out of the Jws by any means available, And would jesus approve of their actions!

As for your question on jesus's invisible presense I'll believe it because there is no reason not too. Certainly the world is a dramatically changing place and if armegeddon isn't due I will be surprised, jesus himself said he had to come otherwise no flesh would get saved lol paraphrasing to lazy to look up scriptures tonight, One question always stays in my mind why do no other faiths use Jehovah and why is the trinity so widespread 33.000 christian faiths and only a handful believe one god yet the jews are completely commited to the one God faith and they are the original chosen faith, mathematically there should be a larger portion than that in christianityto reflect this.

Some will say thats because the trinity was right all along and if that is the case i'll hold my hands up and asked to be led downwards to the demon sharpening his pitchfork probs right now for me but if not the distinctiveness of Jws has me drawn to them and an earthly hope is a very attractive thing to me.

One last thing mouthy you are a sincere person and I respect you for that so please I only ask you believe the same of me, I am not a current witness counting my time just one taking steps to return.

take care Reniaa

343

Defence of watchtower society Links

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

reniaa

hi isaac

disfellowshipping is unchristian? shunning is too well you must know from past threads I don't approve of the shunning I won't be practising it myself but I reserve the right to how much contact I have with someone whose values no longer reflect the bible.

The bible outlines expelling situations in the nt lol are you going to make me find them? You can argue that Jws put them into practise wrongly but you cannot argue they don't exist in the bible.

If I generalised on the holy spirit thing it's only because so many have on here said those sort of words on this very forum. that 'holy spirit has set them free' and they can serve god correctly now and by that they usually mean Jesus. another thing I don't understand about trinity it has a teaching called complementary subordination in refering to Jesus meaning Jesus always considers himself inferior to his father while still being in nature God but in practise trinity makes people put jesus into a superior position.

reniaa

343

Defence of watchtower society Links

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

reniaa

hi isaac

so you just sweepingly says 'thats corporate america' and you do agree with my points but you do not accept as a complex organisation (and involves a lot of corporate aspects) Jws can suffer from the same things?

I think this is really a question of authority, if people lose their faith in a religion then they no longer think the leaders have the right to lead.

You also call it a false prophet actually coming from you isaac I accept it, you believe in trinity and Jws are a false prophet to the trinity and always will be, its only fair since Jws have no hesitation in calling christendom a lot worse :S

Reniaa

thx for imput I may not reply to all but I do read them.

343

Defence of watchtower society Links

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

reniaa

hi deputy dog

lol thats an oldie, yeah I've heard it before very much part of the folk-tales do I care if they did? No If they did well they've had a lot of refining since then, as long as they don't have secret satanic worship as David iche(self-confessed messiah) thinks in the hidden lower levels of the bethel I think I'll not let that stumble me..

343

Defence of watchtower society Links

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

reniaa

hi jeremy

I cannot believe you said this.....

Most Christian organizations do not assert that they are the exclusive channel of communication from God to mankind

erm...pope cough cough, mormons cough cough, scientology cough Baptist, methodist, Quakers and anyway even if they say all christian faiths lead to God (and only the more modern ones do) they make it a 'Jesus only Club', and the wordage used when people talk on Holy spirit..."I got holy spirit now jesus talks to me so I now know everything' they are saying there sole communication with God is all they have to listen too this is a very born again thing.

If you consider Jw's a special case thats only because you were in it so long, if you go on the support groups for other faiths people say very similar things on them and the gripes are similar too, in fact I recommend it, I went on an atheist site and they spoke about every religion as those on here only speak on Jw's, talking about mass hynotism so people believe in God. Athough we are becoming a more Atheist world since evolution is taught as fact in schools and colleges and scientists are have great difficulty getting jobs if they profess to have faith in God.

I think the wt is very very strict and this will stand out more as other faiths cave under the pressure of public opinion, like I said I can see them becoming one of the last few religions that insist on keeping the fornication, adultery etc biblical commandments they are certainly the only one that even does the blood one despite it being one of the few commandments that started right from noah not just the moses law.

I don't try and defend all it's policies I think there are many things that could be improved and the dec 15 wt I saw on here has put goodworks clearly on the same footing as ministry I hope this means people will help those in need more.

I only say that when I look at all the faiths this particular one for me follows the bible more accurately than most and I don't have to get my head around a composite God.

Reniaa

I'm sorry if I've missed people, this has been another good discussion despite the usual ones that call me troll lol or even worse an ACTIVE Witness, trust me if this Forum is still around when I do become one, I will tell everyone and they can be my conscience for me and tell me that I shouldn't be on these boards something I see some people fall back on alot as an end play '

23

Discussion about the bible.

by Anti-Christ in

okay it's has been a while since i started a good old discussion about the bible.

i will discuss a few facts about it that a lot of religions (including the wtbts) don't like talking about.

first the formation of the ot.

reniaa

hi I will state first I have no way got laialeo's knowledge of this subject but I did look a little, this was interesting point...

The Torah itself contains no explicit statement ascribing its authorship to Moses, while Mosaic attribution is restricted to legal and ritual prescription and is hardly to be found in connection with the narrative material." [ 17 ] Deuteronomy 31:9 and Deuteronomy 31:24-26 describe how Moses writes "torah" (instruction) on a scroll and lays it beside the ark of the Covenant. [ 22 ] Statements implying belief in Mosaic authorship of the Torah are contained in Joshua, [ 23 ] Kings, [ 24 ] Chronicles, [ 25 ] Ezra [ 26 ] and Nehemiah. [ 27 ]
The rabbis of the Talmud (c. 200-500 CE) discussed exactly how the Torah was transmitted to Moses. In the Babylonian Talmud Gittin 60a it is written "Said R' Yochanan, the Torah was given in a series of small scrolls," implying that the Torah was written gradually and compiled from a variety of documents over time

Could moses have written various bits that a later author put together and a cohesive whole came about?

one interesting fact is Jesus did acknowledge moses as the author

"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (John 5:46-47)

343

Defence of watchtower society Links

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

reniaa

I scanned the first page of this thread and don't have time to read all 15 pages but I just want to say this to the original poster:
I don't know what your JW experience is, or was, but my money is on those on this forum who spent decades in the inner circle, teaching the WT doctrines from the platform and/or devouring all the approved 'research' published by the WTBTS.
Until you have sat on judicial committees and seen the lack of justice and disrespect for logical thinking that permeates this organization, until you have sat upstairs in the "most holy" at the conventions and watched the inherent hypocrisy and jockeying for position in this "spiritual paradise," and unless you have been at Bethel and witnessed up close the inner workings of this group of religous whack jobs, you have no idea WTF you are talking about.
willyloman

Are you saying because I wasn't an elder or in the bethel I wouldn't have any idea how an organisation is run? I worked for a very big company and saw first hand what a heirachy based org can do, the cliques, the gossip, the isolation if you feel like you don't fit in, the intense ambition but I also read the bible and noticed how the Appostles constantly fought within themselves as to who was the greatest and then in the NT people were boasting in groups on who got to baptise them.

Do you honestly think if you looked behind the curtains of any religion the men would be anything more than just men? even moses got punished for his arrogance. It saddens me that so many elders and bethel workers are on here. And they have had hardest work to do they truly give all their life to Jehovah.

Well I may never have reach the upper echelons but I have never seen anything in the people around me in the KH that haven't already seen anywere else and if I have one gripe with this site it is the exageration and constant need to put the worst spin on things happenning within the wts but I guess that comes with the territory.

reniaa