Posts by Hmmm

14

American Legal Eagles Where Are You?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

theres been lots of posts recently concerning the american justice system.

to be fair, most of us europeans dont really understand it very well, and we have been giving you yanks a bit of a hard time lately, so i think that it would be great if we could all have some enlightenment on how it works.. for example, in the uk there is one law that applies to every citizen no matter who they are.

in the us, different states seem have different laws.

Hmmm

I'm in WAY over my head, here, but I'll give it a shot:

does a state only have control over minor laws, and the US as a nation have control over the more serious laws, or can a state have the final say?

That's pretty much what the Civil War (1860s (don't know how to convert the date to the metric system)) was about. Slavery was an ancillary issue, a specific example of the issue of state's rights.

I couldn't tell you the specifics, but certain crimes fall under Federal jurisdiction (pretty much anything worse than chaining your alligator to a fire hydrant, which is against the law in the state of Michigan, gets the Feds involved).

if the perpetrator is then found to have committed crimes in other states, does he have to serve several sentences in different states?

That can happen. But if someone is committing crimes in multiple states, they're probably Federal crimes, in which case they'll be sent to a federal prison, and I think they'll usually just let you rot in one place for all your crimes.

Federal prisons have different security levels. Hardened criminals, or ones who commit violent crimes, will be sent to higher-security prisons, so they can be raped by bigger inmates. This might mean that you'll serve your time in a different state than where you committed the crime(s).

It's pretty rare for a judge to overturn a jury verdict, and he's opening the way for years of appeals.

Being a faithful JW for many years, I could be all wrong about matters of non-theocratic gubmint. Most of my information comes from watching The Practice and the OJ Simpson trial.

Hmmm

24

Answer to: Why do JW's come here against WT policy

by GodRules in

jw
friends

believe it or not the motives are love, at least in my case.

i know that sometimes jw's on this board do not show that, but it goes the same with some ex-jw's too.. am i going against wt counsel?

yes, but i am willing to pay the price to help my fellow man, specially if i see that they blinded by resentment and are going contrary to jehovah's will.. why does the wt give the counsel to stay away from site such as this?

Hmmm

My start down the long slippery slope of apostasy (or one of the things that got me on the road to freedom) was chatting on mIRC as a Witness. I went toe-to-to with atheists, born-agains, apostates, mormons... you name it. Each time I logged off I was sure that I had defended my Christian Faith, and quite possibly got one fortunate soul on the road to the glorious freedom of Sons of God.

While I was certainly sincere in my beliefs and motives to a degree, I was also enjoying the mental challenge of debate, and the fun of flirting with the Dark Side.

Obviously, my little schemes backfired. I succumbed to the most nefarious and deadly danger to seemingly-strong Witnesses. I listened to other people and started looking up things in sources not listed in the WT Index.

I found the extreme bitterness and vitriol of some posters easy to dismiss as evil borne of Satan. It played to my JW-trained sense of superiority. But the tenderness and caring of some, balanced with a few well-timed sarcastic kicks in the pants, planted seeds that grew and helped me to become the respectable, well-rounded apostate that I am today.

So GodRules, I say stay and have a blast. Maybe you'll get a couple of us to see the light and rejoin the flock. Maybe you'll see the light and get out of darkness. Either way, I don't think it can hurt you to be exposed to the thinking and experiences of others.

Hmmm

18

1952 WT - Official Policy on Anointed

by Amazing in

jw
friends

this is a must read: the following is taken from the january 15, 1952 watchtower, pages 63 and 64. it is the most cmpassionate, kind, and detailed article i ever found on the topic of how jws know they are anointed.

the article even encourages jws to consider'partaking of the emblems' at the memorial.

it is the 'final article' that gave me the 'courage' to openly declare my hope as one of the anointed.

Hmmm

Hi Amazing,

Thanks for the clarification. It looks like I did a pretty good job of misunderstanding you.

In my years in the organization, apart from people reporting the transgressions of others, or people seeking help when they have issues of conscience, or confessing a transgression, one of the more frequent questions to Elders has been from those wondering if they are 'anointed'. Because most JW Elders are not 'anointed' they harp on current policy and scare the beegeebers out of the JW making such inquiry. Whereas, if JW Elders were to give this modest, kindly written article from 1952 to JWs making inquiry, I cannot help but believe that many more would openly profess to be 'anointed.'

Italics mine

Interesting. I didn't know the question was that common, and your explanation makes sense. I guess I was only looking at it from my standpoint. I and my circle of friends would have given you and the other elders no problems because we never gave any thought to our being anointed... then again, it's something that I haven't given much thought to today, either.

I'm simply "inactive" from the JWs, but my heart has been gone for a decade, and I haven't stepped foot in a KH in probably seven or eight years. But I guess I've been wandering in a kind of fog all that time, spiritually, and haven't taken the time to research and decide just where I stand on many of these issues.

Thanks for the response,
Hmmm

36

GOOD NEWS / BAD NEWS

by You Know in

jw
friends

good news/bad news.

first, the good news: the good news, at least as far as the watchtower's multitudinous enemies are concerned, is that the watchtower's days are definitely numbered.

the bad news, as far as apostates should be concerned, is that the days for this present system, as we know it, are also of equally short duration.

Hmmm

It is a well-documented fact that the economy of any country, and the world economy in general, is cyclical. The US economy, as a leading indicator of the economy of the world at large, is YEARS overdue for a down-turn. But because the media tends to hype minor things, and because today's young people have never lived through a serious correction--much less depression--the current economic situation takes on biblical proportions.

You Know: If the current economic catastrophe turns out to be nothing more than following the laws of economics, will you confess to uttering a false prophecy, in saying that it was a direct lead-in to Armageddon? After all, you're anointed, right? Jesus is the mediator between God and you, right? The Bible was written for you, right? You and about 8000 other people are the faithful and discreet slave, who give mankind the proper food at the proper time, right?

Or once the current down-turn runs it's cycle and swings upward once more, will you proclaim New Light?

Better yet, will you blame your followers (FredHall? GodRules?) for reading too much into your words? Will you post again stating "Some have mistakenly said that the former economic slow-down was a precurser to the End. Some, going ahead of You Know's Celestial Chariot, read too much into innocent comments about inflation and wrongly invested in low-yield T-bills. However, the average temperature worldwide is now .0003 degrees warmer than it was 2,500 years ago; surely this can only mean the end is near..."

Hmmm

18

1952 WT - Official Policy on Anointed

by Amazing in

jw
friends

this is a must read: the following is taken from the january 15, 1952 watchtower, pages 63 and 64. it is the most cmpassionate, kind, and detailed article i ever found on the topic of how jws know they are anointed.

the article even encourages jws to consider'partaking of the emblems' at the memorial.

it is the 'final article' that gave me the 'courage' to openly declare my hope as one of the anointed.

Hmmm

Thanks as always for an interesting post, Amazing. However, I have a question/issue or two: (red text is my emphasis)

You quoted the WT:

You would have to examine yourself on this basis: “Have I dedicated my life to God through Jesus Christ to do his will forevermore? Do I have the spirit of God? Is God dealing with me? Yes, I have the evidence that God is dealing with me; he is using me in his service. He is providing for me. He is giving me a place in connection with his organization, and I am realizing many blessings, and am growing in the understanding of his Word. I have all of these indications that I have his spirit...”

You emphasize the phrase “you would have to examine yourself on this basis.” Are you saying that you agree with the society and their criteria for determining whether one has God’s spirit? If that is the case, then wouldn’t it be fair for non-JWs to say that no JW could claim to be anointed, given that they are anointed “in connection with His organization” and “growing in the understanding of his Word”? (Certainly, those of us who have come to believe that God does not have to have a single chosen Organization, and that the WT does anything but help people grow in understanding of His Word would say so.)

What I mean is, isn’t it rather pointless to use the society’s standards for determining anointing? Since they’re so wrong about so many things, why would we trust their reasoning on this issue?

You continued with what I take to be your main point of the post:
WT:

Then, what is the thing that draws the line of demarcation between the two classes and puts you either on the side of the “great crowd” or puts you on the side of the anointed remnant? As you examine yourself YOU have to determnine what your hope is, because Gos is dealing with you and is CULTIVATING in you some sort of a hope.

Amazing:

Notice that the hope is CULTIVATED, thus suggesting a growth process, and NOT some instantaneous electrified zapping.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. You must cultivate something that was previously planted. What about Nicodemus, and the thousands who were baptized (anointed) immediately after accepting Jesus? Suppose God "planted" his spirit into you and, POOF you’re anointed! Could God not then cultivate that anointing and hope? An instantaneous anointing and a cultivated hope are not mutually exclusive.

You later state:

Note: I have no doubt that if ALL JWs read this article today, that many thousands or tens of thousands, and I would not be at all surprised if even several hundred thousand would openly profess to be anointed.

I don’t see how you arrive at this conclusion. I assume that all JWs in 1952 did read this article, yet there was no great storm of Witnesses claiming to be anointed. What is different about today’s JWs that would make them claim anointing, that 1950’s JWs didn’t have?

If anything, I think the article would have less impact than it did. Why? Because we’re now further away from the magical 1935 cut-off date than in 1952. I remember discussing anointing with JWs in the mid 1980s, and the possibility of any of us being anointed was not seriously considered. We were all in our mid-to-late teens at the time, and we had been raised from birth KNOWING that we were not anointed, that it was something that had ended a half-century before. I think that more people are turning away from the organization today than in the 50s (my purely subjective opinion) and they might embrace the idea of being anointed “in the Lord,” but they aren’t really JWs, are they?

You then say:

JWs who come onto this forum and try to say that they are of the JW anointed class, and know they are such because they were ZAPPED by some electrifying or sensational force, and that is how they know they are anointed, simply defy the position and teaching of their own organization.

Well I don’t put much stock, anymore, in the position and teaching of the organization, so if someone wants to make a claim that defies the GB, I have no problem with it. You say your anointing was a slow process. Does it have to be identical for everyone else in order for you to accept it? Really, what difference does it make? Once you leave the JWs, your status as an anointed one (in the sense that JWs use the term) changes and makes the whole point moot.

By far, the most astonishing statement you made (maybe it's old news to board veterans) was:

...Fred Franz who was never a baptized JW.

Huh? Fred Franz was never baptized as a JW? Have I been under an apostate rock the past few years, that I’ve never heard this? The Society’s “oracle,” anointed one, and GB member who was the power behind Knorr’s throne, was never baptized? Doesn’t this go against everything the society claims about being anointed? How are they any sort of authority on a subject, when they don’t apply their own rules to themselves?

Amazing, I hope you won’t take this as an attack. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your posts (though I missed all but a couple of the Justice postings). I must admit, however, that the entire tone of this post struck me as a personal vindication of your anointing, rather than a discussion of the subject in general.

Sincerely,
Hmmm

Edited because I'm apparently unable to format text without screwing it up the first six--make that seven--times

Late August Convention?

by Hmmm in

jw
friends

i've looked on the official jw site, but can't find a thing there.

can anyone tell me if there are any conventions in the us in late august (24-26th) .

thanks in advance,.

Hmmm

I've looked on the official JW site, but can't find a thing there. Can anyone tell me if there are any conventions in the US in late August (24-26th)

Thanks in advance,
Hmmm

16

LIES in Current Watchtower!

by Eusebius Hieronymus in

jw
friends

after posting on the maximus nourishment for the spirit thread about elaine pagel's "the origin of satan" and "adam, eve, and the serpent," i check my mail and find the watchtower for august 15, and a qfr (whole page) answering the question, "for how long a period of time did job suffer.".

they say "job's suffering and its resolution may have occurred within a few months, perhaps less than a year.

" blah, blah, tribulation momentary and light, blah, blah, christ will himself finish your training.

Hmmm

Fred Hall,

Rather than make snappy one-liners that aren't, why don't you respond to an actual issue?

The fact is that Job, who is put up as the penultimate example of a faithful servant of God, celebrated the birthdays of his children.

JWs say this is tantamount to creature worship, yet readily celebrate wedding anniversaries. Can you explain this apparant contradiction with a reasoned, supported argument? If anything, it doubles the sin of creature worship, since it elevates two people instead of only one.

Hmmm

34

For all x-JW's: quick question.....

by Kathy in

jw
friends

if you remember, i've been inquiring about how to discuss jw issues with my boyfriend's sister.

it appears she is accepting the watchtower driven interpretations of the bible, but we are still not giving up.

if you are willing, would you respond, in a nutshell, to the question, "what is the doctrine or belief that the jw's hold that was most instrumental in leading you to abandon this religion?

Hmmm

False prophecies. For years I parroted the usual JW mantra that it was a reult of heightened expectations, similar to Jesus' apostles. (What a sweet deal; as a JW leader you can be favorably compared to the apostles for being wrong, while at the same time blaming the rank and file for believing you!)

It took years, but I finally allowed myself to read "apostate" material and discovered that there is NO HISTORICAL BASIS for JW prophetic dates. JWs state that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607BCE and take scriptures from Genesis to Revelation to count forward to [insert date here, currently 1914]. But they offer no proof that Jerusalem was destroyed in that year, and ignore the historical evidence that they're probably off by about a "generation."

Whatever is looking good to your boyfriend's sister, stress to her that she should verify any- and everything she hears from JWs with independent research of her own. Make her realize that once she decides to join them, it's like joining the mafia or a street gang: She can be kicked out, but she can NEVER leave of her own accord. That being the fact, she owes it to herself to really look into every single statement of dogma that JWs make, because she'll be expected to accept each and every one of them. If she has the tiniest niggling little doubts, she'd better satisfy them now, because she won't be allowed to research them later.

the false prophecies was the first thing that made me say,
Hmmm

21

Secret Posters Hedging Their Bets?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

since i found sites like this on the internet i have been constantly amazed at the great number of people who post here and yet do this in secret.. so many people seem to be trapped in a situation where they desperately want to leave the jw religion behind.

so many people seem to be unable to do so for fear of losing their families, fearing that a da'ing or df'ing decree will separate them from the people that they love.

some posters are even elders and ministerial servants.. so, can you guys tell me how you manage to lead a life that is so complex?

Hmmm

I think trapped is the correct word. When you're forced--starting before you're even baptized--to separate yourself from ALL non-JWs, leaving means turning your whole world upside down. Losing friends is bad enough, but to know that your family (if they're following the rules) will also treat you as a non-entity is all the more devastating.

I am a third-generation JW, so I've never had non-JW friends--not even acquaintances, lest they be misconstrued as friends. But the real reason I stay "under cover" is my father. He has a debilitating disease, and if I left publically, it would be much more difficult for me to assist him. This is ironic considering that his "Christian" family members aren't much help at all, but I feel it leaves me no choice. If I "outed" myself to him, I'm sure he wouldn't care, but I have a whole host of brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and a mother who would tow the company line and try to cut me off from him if I were a dreaded apostate.

I've often thought of the relief I would feel to be out in the open with my feelings; even more so to share them with my family and perhaps free them of the overriding guilt and inadequacy that is drilled into them as JWs, but it "wouldn't be prudent at this juncture."

Hedging? I think at first. I used to be an up-and-comer; a Pioneer and MS who would've probably been an elder at a young age. I don't have to describe to most of you the turmoil of growing doubts and the feelings of disloyalty they caused. I just KNEW that it was God's Organization, but I only had one small problem with the repeated failed prophecies. Yet how could I leave the organization over that issue, when they were right about so many others, like blood and 1914? I just knew that the day I said in my heart that it wasn't The Truth, Armageddon's fireballs were going to start falling from the sky.

I remember reading In Search of Christian Freedom and worrying that I was betraying my God. Actually, I think being caught by His human policemen was a worse fear. I found it at a library and contemplated stealing it so my name wouldn't be recorded as the lendee. As I read the book and the single pebble of doubt grew into an avalanche, I was still taking the book out to my car at night because it was the ultimate apostate material. I thought I was going to wake up one night to find the book floating around the room!

Since then I've kind of drifted away. I'm severely inactive, so much so that my family rarely asks me to attend the special talks or CO visits anymore. I make sure they see me in a suit during DC time, when the family gets together for dinner Sunday evening, but we always manage to miss each other at the actual convention site... strange how that works. It's been like this for about the last five years. It kind of reminds me of wearing suits as a kid. It's uncomfortable at first, but after so many years you get used to it.

After all this rambling, I'm not sure I've answered the question, but it's my first post (and my Official Public Outing, though anonymously) so be gentle.

Hmmm

42

Sci-Fi Fans Only: A.I.

by Maximus in

jw
friends

i hear tell there are some aficionados out there.. as a young man i secretly loved ray bradbury, isaac asimov, l. sprague decamp, poul anderson, arthur c. clarke and others.

loved brian aldiss' "super-toys last all summer.".

when the movie "2001: a space odyssey" premiered, i sneaked into a theater all by myself, and was blown away.

Hmmm

Seeker,

I usually consider myself one of the sharper knives in the drawer (all the more reason to feel utterly humiliated when I think of my years in the bORG) but I must confess that the ending of A.I. left me puzzled. Your explanation seems to make sense. I'll have to go see it again--now that I finally have the time and money to do something so frivolous as see a movie twice.

Hmmm