Posts by Hmmm

21

My JW Friend Has a Response to DATELINE

by Mister Biggs in

as most of you know, i am an 'undercover brother' (someone who appears to be an exemplary jw but is making strides on escaping).. my wife is a loyal jw.

since we had the book study last night i needed to tape the show.

(by the way, my wife knows about my doubts...).

Hmmm

...Jehovah who was helping to clean up the organization

Jehovah is helping clean up the organization, but his 'mouthpiece' mercilessly pounces on any who had anything to do with the expose.

Hmmm

49

Dateline and Perspective

by non_trias_theos in

two people can behold the same situation and conclude totally different things from their observations.

the pharisees saw jesus performing miracles and thought that he was empowered by beelzebub.

others watched the same thaumaturgic wonders and praised jesus as the son of god.

Hmmm

Duns,

There are two very important things you said that I'd like to address.

Non would not say that past policies of letting the elders handle matters turns jw into pedo paradise. Who in there right mind would take children to a known molester?

That's exactly the point! WT policy prevents the molester from being "known". US law requires sex offenders to register, and prevents them from living close to schools, etc... so there's a chance you'll KNOW about the molester and avoid him.

If you take your daughter over someone's house (male or female) they could have a track record a mile long and you wouldn't know it! The elders might make sure NEVER to let THEIR kids alone with this person, but they're under the same silly strictures as the victims. They're watching you march your beloved children off to the lion's den, and their fear of losing their position mutes them. Were I you, I'd only let my children visit families that the elder's children visit. Of course, if the molester is an elder, it gets a little trickier.

non is one person and the apostates on the board here outnumber him 4000 to 1.

Quit being such a big baby. You've got YouKnow and FredHall, so it's 4000 to 3!!!

[Edit: I forgot accuracy: 4000 to 4. The odds are improving for you all the time.]

Hmmm

49

Dateline and Perspective

by non_trias_theos in

two people can behold the same situation and conclude totally different things from their observations.

the pharisees saw jesus performing miracles and thought that he was empowered by beelzebub.

others watched the same thaumaturgic wonders and praised jesus as the son of god.

Hmmm

duns,

Pedophile Paradise does not mean that we--or Dateline--claim that all, a majority, or even a large minority (though this could be debated) are pedophiles.

Most of us don't claim that the society and the local elders WANT to protect molesters... they simply HAVE to because they MUST put the public reputation of the "happiest people on earth" above individuals.

Do 100% of non-molesting JWs abhore such monstrous behavior? Of course! But that doesn't stop them from unwittingly and/or unwillingly supporting a structure that inhibits exposing, punishing, and preventing such behavior.

Dateline didn't attempt to say that all JWs are pedophiles. They even said at the outset that there may not be a greater percentage among JWs than society at large. But what they effectively showed was that it is a paradise to these predators because the archaic rules in place make it very very hard to punish them--or even protect other children from being victimized--because of the air of secrecy.

Hmmm

40

They acted without 2 witnesses

by Sirona in

i've only just been told of a case of suspected child abuse at the local hall.. the child (aged 4) was alone with the abuser.

she told her mother, who told the elders.

the elders and mother immediately informed the police, despite the fact that there was only one witness - the child.. then the elders proceeded to inform families in the congregation so that they can be on their guard.

Hmmm

Write this date in your calendars' folks, I agree with everything Path said!

It's very hard to accurately describe how I would react because a) I have no children and; b) don't trust the elders enough to tell them the color of my socks.

Maybe ideally the elders would make sure the proper authorities were involved, and privately make sure the accused is always monitored. After that, they take their cue from the police. If they find enough evidence to press charges, then I'd start to warn the congregation(s).

Sirona, when did this take place? Was it very recently, maybe in reaction to the Silentlambs attention, or a while ago?

12

The two witnesses and Susannah

by Bang in

jw
friends

in the second century a mural was drawn from the susannah story on the walls of the roman catacombs - all the early texts included the story of susannah.

the reformationists/protestants took it out of their bible - i assume the anti-catholic wtbts have also.

catholics have kept the story in the bible, it's a part of daniel.. it's a story of the 'two witnesses' - elders.

Hmmm

Nope. I never heard of it.

41

HERE'S WHAT JW ELDERS DO TO LITTLE GIRLS

by crawdad2 in

they question her, in private, all alone with her.... then the questioning keeps breaking down the little girl, so she crys, and they watch, making her describe every detail of the sex act......while she crys..... they want more exact details of where here tounge was............. while she crys....... then they go to a room for 5 min and come back and tell her she doesn't have 2 witnesses, and that she should just keep quite about the matter.. and if she says anything about the matter at all, she will be punished........."then"... she has to go "home" and face "daddy" the "petophile"...... daddy is kind of mad.... do you get the picture yet????????????????????????????????????.

meanwhile daddy is asked to give a part on the assembly.. and little girl has learned to not tell-on daddy........ever again, or she might "die".

Hmmm

lastcall, good post. I should probably leave it at that, but I think an answer needs to be provided for the future JW apologists who will undoubtedly resort to the same reasonings as above.

Unanswered questions to amac:

If you think this is not representative of a meeting with elders under these circumstances, perhaps you could share exactly what you think does happen in a typical meeting. At what point does crawdad's story become atypical? The personal questions? The conclusion that there is nothing they can (will) do? The warning not to tell anyone else for fear of shunning? I'm curious.

I asked you a series of brief, easy questions, which you declined to answer, preferring instead, to set up a straw-man. It is the hallmark of a weak argument.

You are right, I'm sure most elder bodies, when approached with a suspected child molestation, will take the supposed victim alone into a room, so they can ask question after question to satisfy their own sexual curiosity,

Neither crawdad nor I said anything about asking these questions for the elders' sexual gratification. Did you need to take it to that extreme to win your argument? If so, then you might ask why that is. If these untrained men (never a woman to do the questioning, to help ease the little girl's anxiety) were asking those questions in a mechanical, yet insensitive way, might not the effect on the little girl be the same?

with absolutely no feelings for the child but only thinking how to get rid of the situation.

Well now you're at least on the right track. This is the point that I got from crawdad, and it mirrors so very many experiences I've read and heard personally. The pathetic thing is, many judicial bodies really think they have the person's best interest in mind, but they must first consider Mother. What results is a mechanical cold-hearedness that further victimizes the abused. Is it intentional? Surely not. But it is so often what you get when you have a group of untrained elders handling these cases in a pharisaical, legalistic manner, with the organization's reputation foremost in mind.

Lady Lee started an excellent thread about believing your own myths, and cognitive dissonance.

The question her to the point of crying (because that's their favorite part!)

Again with the logical fallacies. Crawdad didn't say because that's their favorite part! You added that to make a more easily defeated argument. Surely you don't have a problem with the statement that she would be questioned to the point of crying? In my old hall they used to call it "the crying room." So what do you disagree with? Oh yeah, you disagree with the statement that you inserted. The words that you put in someone's mouth are suddenly "delusional". Nice debating technique. [insert sarcastic eye-rolling thingie here]

and then leave her hanging for 5 minutes just to tell her "Sorry, no witnesses." And they conclude with

I understand that you're not good at answering direct questions (JR Brown better watch his back) but maybe you could enlighten me as to what part of these statements you find so hard to believe:

You don't think they step out of the room? You think they hash it out in front of the person?

You doubt it takes five whole minutes? How many minutes... four... three?

I don't mean to confuse you with multiple questions, just pick one of them. That would be super.

Oh yeah, if you tell anyone else this, you will DIE!

What's so funny is you thought that by exaggerating, you could make some extreme statement that wasn't believable. Well go watch Dateline, and tell that to Erica and all the others who are threatened by spiritual death, followed "any day now"" by literal death for causing divisions, speaking out against a brother, or whatever the excuse du jour is.

That is the picture you seem to attempt to portray in the initial post, albeit through semantic implications.

It seemed to me--and I could be wrong here--that he was relaying a real-life experience that happened to someone he knew. If that's the case, it is not meant to portray EVERY SINGLE MEETING, WITH EVERY SINGLE GROUP OF ELDERS IN THE WORLD. By taking it to such a silly extreme it's easy to tell yourself that it doesn't happen at all. Congratulations.

Crawdad was doing what all good journalists do... making the story personal. Figures are boring and dont mean anything. A personal story is what will reach people. And if that was a true story, and you decided to utilize a few sad debating tricks to put a notch on your argument belt, I just hope you never find yourself in a position to have to tell a story like that to people.

Get real. If that is the way you feel the majority of elder bodies act, then you are more brainwashed than a die hard JW.

Now I'm more curious than ever. Maybe you could describe your picture of a typical JW elder's meeting. Warning, if it involves such pathetic phrases as "spirit-directed" or "prayerfully considered" you wont find many buyers for your snakeoil here.

Hmmm

5

The dub life - taken by a man.

by Bang in

jw
friends

a man found an eagle's egg and put it in a nest of a barnyard hen.

the eaglet hatched with the brood of chicks and grew up with them.. all his life the eagle did what the barnyard chicks did, .

thinking he was a barnyard chicken.

Hmmm

I was wondering why my chicken nuggets tasted a little funny last week.

8

DATELINE - WHY THE CONFUSION ?

by Siddhashunyata in

jw
friends

people are posting tuesday may 28 / 7pm, 8pm, 9pm and 10pm as start times on the east coast.

why is this being done when the dateline website shows 10 pm.

Hmmm

It's all the fault of that damned Ben Franklin. Him and his ideas of daylight savings have thrown us off for centuries.

Hmmm

8

Shortlisted for the career at Burncoose/ Caerhays

by invisible in

jw
friends

for those of you were enquiring how my job interview went yesterday for burncoose nurseries and caerhays castle in cornwall uk, the news is that it went very well.

just received a telephone call notifying me that i've been shortlisted to the 2nd round of interviews, in 2nd place.. i want to work here so much, 3 month trial for starters with a 3 bedroomed cottage thrown in amongst a 30 acre woodland garden, very nice.

what i've always wanted.. so, fingers crossed, if i get it, any ex wits needing some peace and quiet over the summer months ahead, you'll be more than welcome to visit should you require a breather / respite from all your everyday stresses.. take care all of you.. yipppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ..... celtic mark.

Hmmm

I call them double whopper with cheese

Hmmm

41

HERE'S WHAT JW ELDERS DO TO LITTLE GIRLS

by crawdad2 in

they question her, in private, all alone with her.... then the questioning keeps breaking down the little girl, so she crys, and they watch, making her describe every detail of the sex act......while she crys..... they want more exact details of where here tounge was............. while she crys....... then they go to a room for 5 min and come back and tell her she doesn't have 2 witnesses, and that she should just keep quite about the matter.. and if she says anything about the matter at all, she will be punished........."then"... she has to go "home" and face "daddy" the "petophile"...... daddy is kind of mad.... do you get the picture yet????????????????????????????????????.

meanwhile daddy is asked to give a part on the assembly.. and little girl has learned to not tell-on daddy........ever again, or she might "die".

Hmmm

amac and path,

If you think this is not representative of a meeting with elders under these circumstances, perhaps you could share exactly what you think does happen in a typical meeting. At what point does crawdad's story become atypical? The personal questions? The conclusion that there is nothing they can (will) do? The warning not to tell anyone else for fear of shunning? I'm curious.

Hmmm