jabberwock

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Posts by jabberwock

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  28

  Why weren't the rebellious angels destroyed?

  by jabberwock in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  nearly every living thing is drowned to death because of the badness and general mischief going on during noah's day.

  why aren't the angels who materialized bodies and fathered a race of giant, violent freaks destroyed as well?.

  i know that they, presumably, left their bodies just in time to escaped the flood, but that shouldn't be enough to escape the wrath of almighty god.. it's interesting that the genesis account says very little about them.

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  jabberwock

  Nearly every living thing is drowned to death because of the badness and general mischief going on during Noah's day. Why aren't the angels who materialized bodies and fathered a race of giant, violent freaks destroyed as well?

  I know that they, presumably, left their bodies just in time to escaped the Flood, but that shouldn't be enough to escape the wrath of Almighty God.

  It's interesting that the Genesis account says very little about them. As far as I can tell, their actions are not even condemned until much later in the books of Peter and Jude. I'm sure Leolaia will have some interesting things to add about this.
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  11

  Jehovah and Satan and universal sovereignity - so what?

  by DrJohnStMark in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  what really is the biblical support for this major doctrine of the wt society?

  when i was still a pioneer, we met a young lady at her door, crying and holding a small disabled baby, asking for an explanation.

  my friend, it was his turn at the door, started to mumble something about universal sovereignity.

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  jabberwock

  If the almighty is the creator and all powerful and wise, there is no need to prove anything to humans. According to the watchtower he's very insecure.

  Yes, exactly!

  I think the ridiculousness of this particular Witness belief is highlighted by an illustration (from the Bible Teach book) that they use to explain it:

  Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.

  Jehovah has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10) How Jehovah handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation. So, what has Jehovah done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.
  
  The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, Jehovah knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves.

  Something like this happened a few times when I was in school. In most cases the teacher just told the student to sit down and be quiet. Sometimes, the teacher would hear the student out, but only if the student was sincere and needed a better explanation of the material. I could never imagine a teacher allowing one of the students to confuse the whole class with something they knew was wrong to begin with.

  None of the other students felt that one of their classmates knew better than the teacher and they would even get annoyed by the interruption. We had enough confidence in our teachers' knowledge and experience.

  Still, the teacher wasn't perfect and it was possible that the teacher was wrong and the student was right. Of course, with an omniscient teacher this would never be an issue.
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  9

  Read ex-Bethelite & ex-JW story on his Blog

  by Gayle in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  .

  http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/aris_report_2008.pdf.

  includes his being raised as a witness as well as life at bethel during the tempestuous seventies.

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  jabberwock

  Thanks so much for posting this Gayle. I just finished reading all eight chapters in one long sitting and I enjoyed them immensely.
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  10

  "Congregation Collapse Disorder" or "Congregation Publisher Depopulation Syndrome"

  by cattails in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  on another thread:http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/183305/3/the-guy-that-claimed-he-was-going-to-bring-down-the-wtbtsi posted some information i'd like to split into it's own discussion: .

  "congregation collapse disorder" or "congregation publisher depopulation syndrome".

  the ccd problem is clearly obvious when worker bees disappear, fade away, go away, pass away.. every congregation of jw's has publishers that pass away due to illness and aging.

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  jabberwock

  I too think the demise of Jehovah's Witnesses lies in a slow decline of growth rather than the mass exodus that is often hoped for.

  I agree with Rebel8 that the "failings and lies of the cult are well-documented at this point." Only when people have access to such accurate, critical information can they make an informed decision.

  However, I worry that non-English speakers have significantly less available or that information in their language is harder to find.

  Of course, Commentary Press has made Crisis of Conscience available in many languages, though there are a few important omissions. I also noticed that FreeMinds has translated selected material on their website. Perhaps, this is enough.
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  24

  Conversion Went Badly

  by VoidEater in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  my aunt's father, a formerly life-long adherent to the apostolic church, became a witness last year.. i just learned he went to the last assembly and died.

  tripped and hit his head on an armrest.. i'm waiting for the next round of email that talks about jehovah protecting his people with guardian angels.

  maybe he missed the memo that this guy was entitled to divine intervention..

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  jabberwock

  BluesBrother, is right on. The publications are always careful to avoid claiming that individual Witnesses can expect divine protection from physical harm. Still I have heard such claims being made in private conversations with Witnesses and even implied during a talk at a convention. Somehow, they never seemed to remember the brutal beatings received by their brothers in Georgia at such times.

  Parakeet, I heard an elder once say that we thank Jehovah when good things happen to us, but we don't blame him for the bad things. Even then, as a loyal Witness, I found such thinking completely untenable.
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  17

  Are you running on empty?

  by compound complex in

  1. jw
  2. friends

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  ever feel as if you've no more to give?.

  cc.

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  jabberwock

  You're not referring to the talk from the annual meeting are you?
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  10

  "Congregation Collapse Disorder" or "Congregation Publisher Depopulation Syndrome"

  by cattails in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  on another thread:http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/183305/3/the-guy-that-claimed-he-was-going-to-bring-down-the-wtbtsi posted some information i'd like to split into it's own discussion: .

  "congregation collapse disorder" or "congregation publisher depopulation syndrome".

  the ccd problem is clearly obvious when worker bees disappear, fade away, go away, pass away.. every congregation of jw's has publishers that pass away due to illness and aging.

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  jabberwock

  I saw this post on the other thread. You have included quite a bit of information here, so I'm only going to respond to a few things for now.

  While many of your ideas are very creative, I think that they are impractical without the combined effort of a large group, which is probably unlikely to happen. In my experience, local congregations are quick to react to "parasitic" Bible studies or apostates in their territory. The WTBTS might even be able to take legal action in some extreme cases.

  A few of your points focused on the cost of literature. You might be surprised at some of the efforts being made by the organization at both the local and internation level to reduce the costs associated with the waste of their literature.

  For example, the branches now closely monitor the literature stock at the Kingdom Hall level through a single coordinator for all of the congregations in that Hall. All requests are made through this one brother who interacts directly with the branch. A limited number of stock items are kept and the branch may even be deciding for the local Halls which publications and how many of them can be stocked.

  Letters to the congregations have discouraged the ordering of bound volumes and other expensive literature and instead encouraged the use of the Kingdom Hall library and the Watchtower Library CD-ROM instead. I'm not sure if it's official policy, but there may be some restrictions on what non-publishers can request at the literature desk.

  All of these measures will make it very difficult to employ any of the tactics you mentioned above related to literature.

  Still, you noted some important trends, particularly the over-reliance on foreign language groups for growth. Such groups usually focus on immigrants who may have had less exposure to the Witnesses and are more likely to be attracted by the inclusive community that Witnesses present themselves as. Again I think it will be hard to counter their efforts without a large, coordinated effort. But, I do think that over time immigrant communities will become familiar with the Witnesses, their beliefs, and preaching tactics.

  I do agree that having "apostate" literature available in other languages is important. Crisis of Conscience is available in many languages, but it seems that many websites and online resources are in English only. Perhaps some of the already good material out there (jwfacts, FreeMinds) could be translated.
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  32

  Other Points From the Annual Meeting

  by jabberwock in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i realize that the latest clarification of the generation teaching has been discussed quite a bit on this thread.. but i think that there are at least two other important points from the annual meeting that have been, for the most part, overlooked:.

  1. the weeds of matthew 13 are not the churches of christendom, but apostates.. 2. showing love to our neighbors involves more than just the preaching work.

  (thanks for mentioning this rubadub).

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  jabberwock

  I realize that the latest clarification of the generation teaching has been discussed quite a bit on this thread.

  But I think that there are at least two other important points from the Annual Meeting that have been, for the most part, overlooked:

  1. The weeds of Matthew 13 are not the churches of Christendom, but apostates.

  2. Showing love to our neighbors involves more than just the preaching work. (Thanks for mentioning this RubaDub)

  I was very surprised to hear these two things were mentioned. What do you all think?
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  37

  Ex-Elders Outnumber Elders In My KH; what does that suggest to you?

  by Room 215 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  right now, the number of ex- elders (either resigned, pushed out or df'd) outnumber the present elders; what does this suggest to you?

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  jabberwock

  I think this is becoming a common problem.

  In the wt 8/15/09 there was an article titled, "Did You Once Serve? Can You Serve Again?" and was entirely about former elders and ministerial servants serving again.

  I know OnTheWayOut has posted some comments about an official policy that even allows elders to maintain their positions in some cases of wrongdoing. OTWO, could you post some details, maybe a reference, here?
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  148

  Notes From the Annual Meeting - Oct 3, 2009

  by daniel-p in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  from a little bird... .

  interesting portions highlighted.

  notes from annual meeting (oct 3, 2009) .

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  jabberwock

  daniel-p's original post is almost exactly what I heard about the annual meeting. Is this an email someone sent you?

  From what I heard, the new understanding of Matthew 13 is that the weeds are apostates not the churches of Christendom.

  "Love endures all things. Love never fails."

  I heard that this talk mentioned the importance of performing acts of love (no, not those kind). They even said that Witnesses should show love towards non-Witnesses in ways other than the preaching work.

  Also, what is going on at these elder schools? I've seen some pretty juicy details of past KMS sessions and I would be really interested in what's going on at these new ones.