Can we please lighten up on Reniaa? I, for one, welcome her thoughts which she has a right to as much as any of us here.
Cadellin
JoinedPosts by Cadellin
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226
Recently disfellowshipped prominent Assembly overseer in Western Europe now speaking out against the Watchtower org.
by the research lady informer elder, and assembly overseer roberto from france will be joining barbara and joe anderson on tonight's conference call, july 18,2009. roberto was disfellowshipped in june 2009 and after many faithful years of service is now joining thousands of others who are speaking out against the evils of the watchtower organization.
our call tonight will be focused on how the country of france, as well as other european countries are investigating jehovah's witnesses.
the watchtower organization is experiencing difficulties in these countries for the inhumane treatment and exerting too much control over people's lives.
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Howdy from a long time lurker
by Cadellin ingreetings all:.
i just want to say howdy and thank you .
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Cadellin
Isaac: No prob! I'm wearing my sunglasses b/c it's sunny today!!!
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Howdy from a long time lurker
by Cadellin ingreetings all:.
i just want to say howdy and thank you .
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Cadellin
Renaai:
shame to lose your faith in Jehovah over imperfect publications and the creation book is an old one and could only reflect the evolution knowledge at the time, selective quoting happens if someone says something, they have to accept it will be quoted even if they have said it against their own ultimate beliefs on a subject.
Thank you for sharing your concern. First of all, let me say, I really enjoy the undaunted feistiness that you express in your posts. You're right, it would be a shame to lose faith in God over imperfect publications. That's not what happened with me. It wasn't the imperfect publications, it was everything they sprung from. The Creation book isn't considered outdated by the organisation, not like the old one it replaced. The last special Awake that dealt exclusively with evolution was September 2006 and it referred readers to the Creation book for more information. Furthermore, the quoting isn't just selective, it's symptomatic of the fundamental misunderstanding of evolution that permeates just about everything the Society prints on the matter.
Admittedly, evolution is a tough subject. You mention that scientists don't agree and change their minds, that Darwin's own words wouldn't be recogizeable today. What I've found is that while scientists might disagree on certain aspects or details, they sure as heck don't on the overall picture. For example, anthropologists differ as to whether certain stone tools were used by late australopithecines or by early H. erectus. But they all agree that the australopithecids were bipedal and contributory to the Homo lineage. They all agree that they lived 2 to 4 millions years ago. They all agree that they predated--though overlapped--with early Homo species. They all agree that one or more of them were ancestral to us.
I've come to think of truth as a Vinn diagram. Experts may disagree on certain things but its where all the circles overlap--where they all agree--that you're likely to find what's what. And its true, science does change--that's the great thing about it. It's self correcting. Ideas may come and go, but ideas supported by a preponderance of the evidence come and stay.
And, Ren, you should read Origin of Species. It's not particularly dry or tough to get through. The core of Darwin's idea--that species are shaped by natural forces--has remained true. Much of what he said is still right on. His genius is that he was working without the benefit of a knowledge of Mendelian genetics--and without a high tech lab, like scientists today. He made the connection between environment, heredity and the nature of organisms all through observation and pure thought. Wow.
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Howdy from a long time lurker
by Cadellin ingreetings all:.
i just want to say howdy and thank you .
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Cadellin
Mouthy! Thank you for asking! Wow--seems my introductory thread has initiated an extremely cryptic hi-jacking...I'm curious as to what's going on with Spike and Isaac...Anyway, since you asked, um--about the same. My slow fade is progressing. I start graduate school in the fall (hooray). I'd love to tell you more but I still need to keep a low profile. Very excited about that. School, not the low profile. Still on antidepressants, still trying to face my fears. I'm just taking it one day at a time.
You're so sweet to ask. How are YOU???
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Question
by inbetween injust have a question,.
when you found out about things regarding the wts, maybe on the internet, on this side or another, or you had serious doubts by yourself, did you talk to somebody ?
maybe an elder or a good friend ?.
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Cadellin
Imperfection isn't the problem. The problem is accountability. The GB WANT to be obeyed AS IF they are inspired, yet avoid any kind of accountability when they are wrong or when they change position. They expect obedience to the point of huge, huge life changing decisions--not marrying, not having kids, not going to college, etc., enormous decisions that impact a person's entire life. If their positions were stated in more humble terms--"to the best of our knowledge," "we believe", etc. AND enforcement was not mandatory, then, no, there wouldn't be any problem with being wrong from time to time.
(I should clarify something. Lots of JW marry and have kids and more than a few go to college, so it's not like its forbidden to do those things. What I mean is, many listen to the counsel that the end is imminent and everything other than witnessing has to take a back seat and, as a result of a strong conscience and basically a decent heart, they decide, BASED ON SUCH INFORMATION, not to have kids, etc., even though they might otherwise have done so. Whew! Hope that makes sense!)
So the onus is on each person to determine what is true. As Carl Sagan said once, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." I would have no problem with anyone or any organization claiming to be God's channel, if they could back it up with proof. In the first century, the Christian congregation made extraordinary claims--they were now God's channel, not the Jews--BUT they had extraordinary evidence to back it up. They were performing miracles, they were raising the dead. (NOTE: I'm just taking the NT on face value for the sake of argument; I have some concerns with the whole concept of inspiration right now. But that's beside the point.)
The GB point to the world wide preaching work and the increases over the last century as extraordinary evidence. Yet is it? If you have a group of people whose whole purpose in life is doing nothing but evangelizing, and with as wonderful a hope as JWs offer (and yes, it is an incredibly seductive hope, paradise, tame animals and all the fruit you want), then it would be extraordinary if they DIDN'T manage to grow in numbers. Yet even that is waning in the past few decades, with the exception of third world countries, where ALL evangelical groups are growing rapidly, not just Witnesses.
Inbetween: I'm in your shoes, man. I haven't said boo to anybody except my husband. I'm doing the ultra slow fade. I'm not going out in svc anymore for the very reason you gave--I can't bear the thought of telling people things that I know arn't backed up by the evidence. I still turn in a couple of hours to keep things peaceful. It's tough. I take one day at a time. I agree with everyone else--talking is going to get you in trouble. Writing the society is pointless. I'm lucky in that I'm in a cong where the elders are not going to make waves as long as I don't make waves. Sleeping dogs and all that. So far anyway.
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Bible scholars/researchers: What is your favorite version of the Bible?
by restrangled ini only have the nwt.
i went to the bookstore and picked up the scofield study bible iii version of the niv.
i have 2 weeks to return or exchange it.
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Cadellin
Quick check indicates the New Jerusalem Bible was published in 1985, which means it doesn't necessarily correspond to the French, I would guess.
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Jehovahs Witness Statistics Online?
by shamus100 inanyone have the stats for the dubs online, such as memorial attendance, baptisms, etc?.
i appreciate your replies.
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Cadellin
Interesting, jwfacts. thanks for the link. Does Australia have the increases in the foreign groups the way the US does? Anecdotal evidence indicates that Spanish and other foreign lang groups in the US have meaningful increases, though the numbers are never broken out of the official statistics. Yet the "official" growth rate in the US is nothing special (1-2%, I think), implying decreases in the English. It would eye opening to see the numbers separated by language groups (and that's probably why the Society won't ever do that).
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"KEEP ON THE WATCH" tick tock tick tock
by apocalypse inget your field service time in, tick tock tick tock.
it's half past meeting time tick tock tick tock.
gotta study soon tick tock tick tock.
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Cadellin
Soon, very soon, very very very soon...I asked my husband during the DC when the word was used for the 144th time, "at what point does "soon" become utterly meaningless?"
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Could Watchtower Collapse Be Sooner Than You Think?
by metatron inthere have been a number of developments over the past few months and they paint an interesting picture.. witnesses can keep dragging themselves to meetings ad infinitum however, the future of the watchtower itself is another story.
the evidence of continuing cash flow problems is now overwhelming.
if you talk to well placed witnesses, most won't deny it but simply blame it on the publishers financial problems.. they have cut off loans to congregations many of whom genuinely need new kingdom halls.
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Cadellin
True, PSacramento, but I think the big changes we've seen are going to continue--it may be forced to survive in a very different and diminished form.
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Cadellin
Oh, and not to be missed: Life, How Did It Get Here? By Evolution and Creation?
Seriously--research into all of the scholarly, accurate and highly responsible quotes in that book was what convinced me, once a die-hard creationist, that evolution was true!!!