damn! They got us.
superpunk
JoinedPosts by superpunk
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24
Thank God for Morals ?
by PSacramento innot sure if this is the best title, but.... [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><!
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superpunk
May biblical scholars do NOT view the bible as innerant, including the Late Bruce Metzger I think.
Many do.
Its not a question of, "we thought it was literal and know that is not the case so it is a metaphore". It's the case of progressive learing and understanding of the bible.
I don't see why people have issues with that.
It's a trend throughout history. The world is flat, our universe is geocentric. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a heretic. Oh, what? It's incontestable that these biblical concepts are false? Well, now they're metaphorical and God's communication to a primitive man (apparently primitive man couldn't handle the idea that the earth is a globe), plus we're really sorry we excommunicated and killed people who said otherwise.
It feels like "cheating". And each believer/theologian draws their arbitrary line differentiating reality from metaphor differently. Imagine if the sciences acted in such a manner!
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24
Thank God for Morals ?
by PSacramento innot sure if this is the best title, but.... [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><!
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superpunk
Where did religious morals come from - if not from humans?
In another way of looking at it -
Which came first, Grammar books - or grammar?
The idea that humans morality comes from religion, is circular reasoning and self-defeating. We invented religion. If morality comes from religion, it simply came from us.
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24
Thank God for Morals ?
by PSacramento innot sure if this is the best title, but.... [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><!
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superpunk
Morality is relative to time and location.
At one point, people (Christian and otherwise) thought it was moral to own other human beings as slaves. Was that morality instilled in them by any divine source? Or are we picking and choosing which morals we attribute to our holy heritage?
Humans of all cultures place rules on themselves. We like things in their place. And it doesn't take a divine being to make us realize that if we don't want someone else to kill us, or take our things, then other people wouldn't appreciate it if we did it to them. At some point we wrote these things down, and installed penalties for violaters. Our sense of right and wrong is built up as we grow. If we take a toy from our friend - they will hit us. If we hit our friend, they will either hit us or tell an adult, who will penalize us somehow. We learn these things quickly - animals do the same.
In this chicken egg argument - human morality comes first - holy texts come second. At some point, the holy texts have been there so long that we feel we owe them something.
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superpunk
Either it is God's word or incoherent fiction. Either will do, but something in between is a trick of the mind I cannot accomplish.
I agree, but maybe that's just our JW training coming through - the bible is the infallible/inerrant...or it's not. I don't understand the value in making it some amalgamation of the two - wherein each individual draws an arbitrary line around the bits that are historical fact and metaphor.
It seems to me throughout history they hold onto it all as reality - until reality disproves it - at which point (biblically recorded) reality is seamlessly transformed into metaphor. Presto!
It's certainly convenient. Is it honest?
I liked those videos. I actually watched the program while I was in Ireland, resting in the hotel at night in between action-packed days. Mem'ries...
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WatchtowerÂ’s biggest secret: Abraham, Moses and David did come back!
by Exterminator init is well known that, starting in 1918, watchtower publications under the direction of judge joseph rutherford had prophesied the forthcoming resurrection of ancient biblical worthies such as abraham, moses and david.
that prophecy is generally thought to have been unsuccessful.
however, secret watchtower files tell a very different story.. .
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superpunk
Nice.
God's "friends" used to do some crazy stuff back in the day.
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76
I'm Thinking of Becoming Canadian
by AllTimeJeff ini am sort of digging the olympics.
plus, i used to live in a state that really should be annexed by canada anyway, michigan.
but i love hockey, autumn, maple syrup, and cold weather.
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superpunk
5-3 America.
Time to reconsider, Jeff.
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63
God so LOVED the world.........................................WHY? How could He?
by Terry inthe following is the most quoted scripture in the bible:.
john 3:16 (new international version) .
16"for god so loved the world that he gave his one and only son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.. here is a question for you.
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superpunk
I feel like we're not even talking about the same thing, or it seems that you are being vague so that you can avoid the scenario Terry described;
The fact of the matter is most Christians fail to acknowledge we are BEING SAVED FROM GOD himself and his wrath!
GRACE is an offer by God to withold His wrath.
This is a transaction;
We each pay for our own "sins".
Can you describe it in detail? Who are we paying?
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63
God so LOVED the world.........................................WHY? How could He?
by Terry inthe following is the most quoted scripture in the bible:.
john 3:16 (new international version) .
16"for god so loved the world that he gave his one and only son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.. here is a question for you.
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superpunk
If my child commits a crime and I find out about it, my love for her will not change at all, how can it? I love her without conditions.
I will however see that she pays for the crime she commited, wouldn't you?
hypothetically yes, I suppose.
Grace does NOT absolve someone from wrong doing, where in the bible does it state that?
You keep bringing this up - I don't really want to get into that, yet. It really has nothing to do with the question I asked.
You asked from WHAT are we being saved and I replied that, typically, it is from ourselves.
That is a simple answer to a complex question, but a correct one I think because it is up to US to embrace our salavtion so yes, we must save ourselves from ourselves.
It's not a simple answer - it's an incredibly vague answer, and I don't understand it. If we don't get "saved from ourselves" - what will happen?
Our capacity for evil, for lack of a better word.
We we embrace grace, we embrace God trough Jesus, we embrace God's love and it fills us full of love for ourselves and one another, it saves US from ourselves by making LOVE the guiding force that drives us to DO GOOD, BE GOOD.
Surely you know that it is not necessary to "embrace grace" to accomplish those things.
We can use a parallel, if you want. I see a transaction in your point of view, but I do not see well-defined roles for the players. You seem to be making them completely interchangable. If I was to succinctly outline what you're saying - God sacrificed himself, for US, to offer us grace so that we could save ourselves from ourselves. As an illustration, if we were drowning in a river - God tosses us a rope (grace) in order to save us from the river (which is also us). You are using very vague terms - I'm trying to find something more specific. Maybe pointed questions will help.
What happened that made us need to be saved from ourselves? Or were we created that way? (You've expressed disbelief in the OT legends before - again this is the difficulty in discussing theology with Christians - they've each got their own...I don't know whether you believe Adam and Eve actually happened. I'm guessing you don't.)
If we don't get saved from ourselves what will happen?
Who is this penalty getting paid to? Ourselves? Or someone else?
Someone that is a serial killer or serial rapist ( as an example) is under grace, God still loves him/her, but that love doesn't mean that they won't have to answer for the crimes they commited, it just means that God's love allows them the chance to be forgiven, but the penality will still have to be paid.
I feel like you're kind of all over the place with this concept.