Posts by donuthole

39

Does mankind need religon to have morality?

by highdose in

jw
friends

an arguement i've encountered recently is: god tells us right from wrong.

if you don't have a reason to do right instead of wrong then no one will have any morals.. i disagree with this entirely of course.

what kind of morality is it when you are only doing what is right out of fear of being punished for doing what is wrong?.

donuthole

I would answer the OP with a reluctant yes. I think for the majority mankind has shown that external controls of behavior are needed. Human governments establish laws which control actions in a similar manner to religion. They also have an enforcement mechanism, as do religions. Without either society falls apart. In early times the religious law and the secular law was the same. In modern times they don't always line up, but still many of the concepts carry over. For instance both a church and a government will mandate that it is wrong to murder or to steal.

I do believe that mankind has the capacity to have an inherent moral compass, a capacity for knowing good and bad, but that it is not developed by most to serve as a reliable guide for conduct. In its place a tutor can be a necessary evil, be it a government or religion.

4

Watchtower on written evaluations

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

watchtower on written evaluations .

today i uploaded a new article to my blog addressing another aspect of watchtowers internal judicial system.

these judicial proceedings produce written evaluations.

donuthole

The written information has also bounced back to bite the Watchtower in that it provides a paper trail linking the local elder's tribunals with the headquarters. In one case a court ruled that it invalidates the Watchtower's claim that judicial comittees are protected by clerical confidentiality privilege. The argument is, how can you say that a judicial comittee is a confidential, private matter between a churchmember and an elder, when the elder is required to document the meeting and report to a third -party.

19

Watchtower Lawyer Fills in the Baptism Blank

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

watchtower lawyer fills in the baptism blank .

today i uploaded a new article to my blog addressing something important that watchtower does not disclose to baptismal candidates, yet on the other hand is ever ready to point out to persons after baptism if they do something silly like ask for correspondence written about their own person.

my article contains a letter from a watchtower staff attorney informing just such an individual.

donuthole

I know that some of have tried to argue that a contract could not exist because they were baptized as a minor and as such couldn't legally enter a contract. In turn the Watchtower has argued that by acting in accordance with the original contract after becoming adult (e.g. continuing to participate in JW activities, attend meetings, go out in service, etc.) that the person is binding themselves to it the original agreement. The agreement is, "Do you understand that your baptism identifies you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in connection with God's Spirit Directed Organization?" Of course, if the person persists that the contract is null the Watchtower may simply say that they are disassociating themselves, "are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses", and they will suffer the same consequences as someone who was disfellowshipped.

33

Do most JW's belive their own private version of the religon?

by highdose in

jw
friends

trying to work with jw's and their cd i notice that the harder i push their beliefs the more likely they are to hit back with some werid version of jw belives that exsists only in their own head.. its almost like they listen to the bs from the platform, run it through their head and then process it through their own filter and end up with a bastardised version of "the truth" that they feel comfortable with.. .

anyone else encountered this?

and whats your theory about it?.

donuthole

The majority of newer JW's are increasingly ignorant of the intracasies of their religion, following the overall trend by the Society to dumb down the table of "spiritual food". In absence of a real in depth comprehension of their faith they may get inventive when put on the spot, but otherwise pay little mind.

Older, longterm members may have a belief system that is a pastiche of old light, new light, urban legend, old CO talks, and speculations. Their version is full of holes and it doesn't quite line up properly, so they may resort to private interpretations to glue the whole thing together.

I saw a little of this first hand when I had a judicial appeal hearing with some of the "brightest" super-elders of the circuit. When the belief of the governing body as representatives of the Faithful & Discreet Slave was challenged, one elder told me that the term "governing body" was in the Bible to describe such a group. Another told me that it was the first century governing body that told christian residents of judea to flee Jerusalem just prior to the attack by the Romans; there is no support biblically or otherwise to substantiate this.

On another occasion I attended a public debate where the St. Louis City Overseer was present as a panelist. When confronted by a member of the public who was distraught that this convert-JW daughter no longer acknowledged her mother on mother's day, the overseer stated that observence of mother's day was a conscience matter. Whether this was his own belief, a lapse in thought, or "rahab strategy", I don't know.

9

Watchtower Rise of the Service Department

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

watchtower rise of the service department.

today i added a new article to my blog addressing the point at which watchtowers service department started to become the organizations muscle.

pastoral work was dumped in favor of, you guessed it, a business model.

donuthole

What amuses me about the Rutherford era literautre is how blantently they describe the preaching work as a literature selling activity.

33

If Jehovah Wanted Only "One Flesh" For "Mates" Why Did He Sanction The Having Of Man Wives & Concubines?

by minimus in

jw
friends

according to the bible, king solomon was blessed by jehovah with riches, wisdom and women---lots of them!.

donuthole

If you look back to the books of Moses, it is written that God had predicted that the people would clamor for a king and that this would do less-desireable things like take so many wives. So I don't see how it can be said that it was sanctioned.

There is a LOT of questionable conduct in the Old Testament by the "good guys" such as drunkeness, lying, sleeping with temple prostitutes, idol worship, murder, etc. Got to be careful making it out as "God sanctioned" just because it was reported.

32

Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect.

by gaiagirl in

jw
friends

jw's frequently say that the first human couple were "perfect" and would have lived forever until they gave up perfection by their disobedience.. however, closer reading of the genesis account shows that they were never perfect, instead, they were designed to grow old and die, just like the rest of the animals.

jehovah has adam name all the animals, but finds that none of the animals is suitable as a companion (wonder how this was determined)?.

jehovah clones a companion for adam, and tells them to not eat the fruit of a certain tree, or they will die "in that very day".

donuthole

The Bible doesn't call them "perfect", at best they were consider "good", along with all creation. To be perfect, one must be tested and found complete. This wasn't the case with them. Even Jesus was said to have been "perfected" by what he endured during trial.

28

A Thing About Language and Thought Processes...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

and particularly old/ancient languages (may you all have peace!)..

some often comment as to why i "speak" as i do when i post certain things.

i received from my lord why that is: according to him, in order for one to understand what certain words/passages meant... and/or what was meant by them... what their speaker/author intended... one has to know something of the language... and the thinking behind the words.

donuthole

It is like learning the law/going to law school - one is (supposedly) taught how to THINK... "like a lawyer." And so, as one's thought processes change... so does one's language. It may still be English (or whatever), but it ascribes to certain words, terms, phrases... and analysis... that isn't merely "English."

LOL - That is such a great example! In the course of business I have the privilege of dealing with law folks - they speak their own form of English for sure ... with lots of Latin sprinkled in for flavour!

50

Why the stunning lack of accurate, historical evidence for Jesus Christ?

by nicolaou in

by no means a new topic for discussion but always worth a fresh airing .

i'd suggest that the 1st century was quite a well documented time.

we have lots of historical evidence for important people who actually existed.

donuthole

@Undercover - There was no Bethlehem times. Maybe next you'll wonder why no one Twittered about Jesus' miracles or why it wasn't on Judea CNN. :-)

Jesus miracles are attested to not just by Christians, first orally, then in writing, but by Jewish opponents in their own literature. What I'm saying is that we don't have writings from the brief window of time that he is said to have engaged in miracle working

50

Why the stunning lack of accurate, historical evidence for Jesus Christ?

by nicolaou in

by no means a new topic for discussion but always worth a fresh airing .

i'd suggest that the 1st century was quite a well documented time.

we have lots of historical evidence for important people who actually existed.

donuthole

In fairness the OP was asking for sources within Jesus' lifetime. Jesus did not come from a notable background, his public ministry was very short and limited, and he was executed as a criminal. I would say this is why we do not have writings during the lifetime of any number of people of his day. It was only in death that he really became someone of note and thus we have writings within decades testifying to him.