Posts by mindmelda

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

mindmelda

LOL, Not a Captive, Lewis Black, a Jewish comedian says "of course God had to tell the Jews how to do everything, even how to get married. They were three hairs from a baboon!"

It's pretty much what you're saying...the Bronze Age was one of the most awful and violent times in human history. As awful as we may think the people of those times behaved, the Mosaic law (and other law codes, the somewhat similar Law of Hammarubi for those other Semites, the Chaldeans) was definitely a civilizing aspect.

To modern humans, harsh and demanding, but to those people, probably a lot more civil that whatever was previously held to. We know that Abraham came from the Chaldean city of Ur...and the bare beginnings of what we call civilization began there. Writing, codifying law, the beginning of people settling into cities around were agriculture now allowed for feeding such larger populations,placing themselves under law and the command of a central authority for protection all gave people the time and ability to do these things in a way the nomadic life hadn't always.

People like Abraham no doubt carried new ideas and civilization along with them, including the idea of one God, something that crops up every so often in human history in various forms. This time, it kind of stuck in a culture more than some others. However, not long after this the Persians developed their own monotheistic concept, Zoroastrianism. It may have been the latest thing in Gods at the time, to believe in one rather than many.

(I'm ommitting supernatural explanations, which are totally up to the individual to believe or not.)

But, much more violent and "earthy" times than we live in now, especially in the first world.

20

If there is a God, is he an atheist?

by DT in

jw
friends

of course, any god would believe in himself, but would he believe in someone greater than himself?

would he postulate an external cause for the realm in which he lives?

you might expect that a hypothetical god would be all knowing, so he would know if there is another greater god, but he couldn't know if there is another realm that he doesn't and can't know about.

mindmelda

Okay, now I have a headache.

You're making me and the baby Jesus cry with that. But, yes, I kind of see your point, because if there is a God, he worships nothing, because there is nothing greater than himself..or herself, or whatever pronoun one uses for superhuman entities who lack human genitalia.

I don't know if "atheist" is the proper term, since it refers to human philosophy, but no, God wouldn't have a God.

You need to stop thinking like this, though. Your head will go splodey as you disappear down your own navel.

52

Doesn't an 'allegorical' Garden of Eden nullify the need for a Ransom?

by AK - Jeff in

i have noted in the past few months or years that christians, when faced the nearly insurmountable evidence that the garden of eden events are improbable if not impossible [i refer to fossil evidence that supports hominid existence on this planet perhaps millions of years ago, as example] to overcome, that the 'fall back' position is often that the garden of eden account is just allegory, not literal.. but it occurs to me that if it is just allegorical, then there is no specific event to mark the 'fall of man' and 'original sin'.

without that, what purpose is served with the idea of a 'ransom' in which 'the last adam' overcomes the sin of adam in the garden.

why would nt writers refer to the events as if literal if they are just allegory?

mindmelda

Hey, don't blaspheme Star Trek! LOL

Actually, some modern myths have just as much meaning and power as old ones, and Star Trek and Star Wars are good examples.

I've seen people talk about both of those and the profound messages they contain as though they were real, because the effect it has on them is quite real.

And, Star Trek inspired a lot of this generations science oriented geeks to make the technology and attitudes of a more just and non-racist (and um, much less capitalist driven society) they envisioned on the series a reality. Sometimes, we make the myth a reality because that is the power of myth, the power of belief. It becomes the basis for the very real things we do and say, for better or worse. And lets face it, people understand the nature of good and evil much better as presented in Star Wars with it's spiritual references to "the light" and "the Dark Side" of "The Force" (much of the behavior of the super honorable Jedi is from the Buddhist inspired Code of Bushido, as Lucas was admittedly inspired by Kurasawa and his samurai movies, even down to the way he costumes the Jedi knights in his movies).

Don't worry, newer and more relevant myths will eventually replace some of the older ones that are no longer so useful. The Bible has had a good ride, much longer than most mythos, but I think it's time is just about up as a whole. The Gospel may end up being the only part we deem worth keeping in future generations. Even now, many Christians regard it as the only and final "Biblical authority". Tells you something.

But, come on, the Bronze Age writings of the laws and history of tribal Hebrews as a way to live our lives in every single way now? NO freaking way! Some of it is so basic it's in nearly every culture on earth, such as prohibitions against murder, rape and theft, but the rest...important only if you were a Bronze Age Jew.

A myth doesn't HAVE to be real to be useful, it only need be able to move people with it's lessons and teachings. One thing I always rather liked about the Greeks, they weren't so invested in their own mythos as reality that they shoved it on others...they themselves realized it was MYTH, at least the more educated Greeks.

But, yes some of our better cinematographers and writers have been able to come up with some much better and understandable myths than the Bible now, and as you can see, the people who are invested in still pushing Bible myth as reality are pretty threatened by that at times.

They attack competing myth when they recognize it, why do you think the Fundies (and Witnesses) hate Harry Potter so much? Because it speaks to kids about love, friendship, loyalty, bravery, forgiveness, the power of good to defeat evil and other values they believe can and should only be taught by the Bible.

8

What had its beginning in the Garden of Eden?

by wannabe in

what had its beginning in the garden of eden?.

we know that right at its outset ancient jerusalem, was representative of the throne of jehovah, that all of his chosen kings sat on the throne of jehovah in that city.

a scripture that the governing body of jehovah's witnesses has used to back up their claim that jerusalem was the throne of jehovah, found at jeremiah 3:17 although, on the one hand, would apply to ancient jerusalem, but a close reading of that entire scripture would appear the be saying something other than what might appear to be the case.

mindmelda

Talking snakes? Boy, I had a hard time following that, but I'm sure it made sense to someone...on um, some sort of medication.

I'm actually Irish, Scots and a little German Jewish, if you want to know my ancestry. Before that, who the hell knows? Probably some Indo European horsemen plundering the steppes and agricultural valleys of Europe and some of Western Asia, like most people of Western European descent?

14

My Congregation = I'm like a sober person talking to "high" drug addicts!!!!

by Witness 007 in

in my cong.

you start a "normal" conversation like....i complimented a brother on having 8 grandchildren....he got a sad look in his eye and said:"yeah, well i wish it was in the new system.

" {i guess they are all doomed to destruction} i honestly was stumped.

mindmelda

Ever see that movie "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers"? Just like going to a Kingdom Hall.

Say something that isn't JW babble speak, and they all stand in unison, point at you and shriek.

35

Why would a woman want to look like that?

by TD in

i was leafing through a diet and exercisie magazine my wife subscribes to and noticed (not for the first time) that the female fitness models don't look like women at all.

--they look like anorexic teenaged boys with long hair.. skinny to the point of emaciation is not fit.

i would be willing to bet that not one of these models could even run a 10k.

mindmelda

Uh, that's when you slap your husband on the back of his head and remind him that you're still in the room. LOL

Actually, I've noticed my husband drooling over a custom car or motorcycle a time or two the way some men oogle women and it's the only time I really feel jealous. LOL

Married to a genuine motorhead here.

15

Would You Die

by sammielee24 in

jw
friends

for your religion or your country?

just curious.

i know many people that say they wouldn't die for religion but follow practices that might cause their death.

mindmelda

I always kind of chuckle when people think they're "patriots" in the sense that people were during the Revolution. Oh, right, start polishing that musket, Mr. Weekend Militia. The government you're so pissed at have tanks, jet bombers and missles. Yeah, not quite like fighting a few British with equally crappy muskets at Bunker Hill, is it?

It was direct assault to their homes and rights people were defending then. What are we defending when we go to another country and involve ourselves in their civil dissent and political shenanigans? Oh, right...oil.

That's hardly the same thing. The people who were trying to help survivors at 9/11, the firemen and paramedics and police, those are patriots in that sense.

Don't get me wrong a soldier is obliged to go where his commander in chief orders him, but that makes it the responsibility of the Congress and the President for sending men and women into bullshit political and greed inspired wars.

52

Doesn't an 'allegorical' Garden of Eden nullify the need for a Ransom?

by AK - Jeff in

i have noted in the past few months or years that christians, when faced the nearly insurmountable evidence that the garden of eden events are improbable if not impossible [i refer to fossil evidence that supports hominid existence on this planet perhaps millions of years ago, as example] to overcome, that the 'fall back' position is often that the garden of eden account is just allegory, not literal.. but it occurs to me that if it is just allegorical, then there is no specific event to mark the 'fall of man' and 'original sin'.

without that, what purpose is served with the idea of a 'ransom' in which 'the last adam' overcomes the sin of adam in the garden.

why would nt writers refer to the events as if literal if they are just allegory?

mindmelda

Well, the need for ransoming could well be allegorical too, some basic human need for redemption from guilt, forgiveness that actually only can come first from ourselves and then from others.

Forgiveness and believing one is forgiven does certainly have some inarguable benefit to a person, although there's no way to prove supernatural benefit.

There's no proof that humans were every perfect and lost that, either.

I never try to prove anything supernatural, I just occasionally think I'm experiencing it. The very word means it's outside of the natural observable and therefore, provable realm of things, doesn't it?

31

Where do we go when we die?

by wannabe in

where do we go when we die?.

there are many very confusing concepts about this subject.

about where we go when we die, and no one i've found to date has really set forth a satisying answer to this question; so i thought i might just employ some of the knowledge i've gained from my own thirty year study of the bible.. where actually would be the most sensible place to begin when dealing with this subject?

mindmelda

I think it's actually okay that no one really knows. When you're dead, you'll know or you won't, it's that simple. In the meantime, spending your actual life wondering or worrying about what you don't know is wasting what you DO know, which is being alive.

282

What accusations do you have about us JWs? AND what group are YOU a part of?

by theMadJW in

.

i'm one of the few jws that freely admit our faults and mistakes.. let's compare notes!.

mindmelda

Oh sure. Debate is all fun and games until someone loses an argument!