Posts by mindmelda

73

Why so many Atheist VS. Christian discussions here?

by mindmelda in

i notice a lot of the discussions seem to be atheist vs christian here.

or is that just my perception?.

but, do the other people who are neither just not care to debate as much or are there just fewer or them, or both?.

mindmelda

Medical science comes up with drugs that kill thousands every year with side effects without really effectively treating the disease. The diabetic drug Avandia is a good example it gave thousands serious heart disease and caused death. It was taken off the market, but the underlying problem was lack of long term study. The acne drug Acutane was not given long term studies and has now been proved to cause irreparable harm to the colon.

At the time they were given to people in complete faith that it would solve their medical issues.

The drug Phenfen gave thousands of people heart valve defects when it was released without long term evaluation for weight loss.

The problem is not science in and of itself or scientific method, that is not what my post was about. It's about the supposition that anything presented by a scientist or said by one, or invented by one is truthful or beneficial. Scientific method fails when not used properly and it is not used properly a SHOCKING lot of the time.

Scientific principles can be enlarged upon and our understanding of the universe will change, making previous suppositions wrong. There's nothing wrong with that unless you're still believing that heavier than air flight is impossible like a lot of totally reputable 19th century scientists, using their best information and thinking at the time, reasoned. Some of them did right up until the Wright brothers proved them wrong and they had seen birds fly their whole lives!

To say science is always truth is somewhat bad terminology. What is more accurate is to say that scientific method, properly applied a good way to try to find truth, and there's not a thing wrong with that, of course.

But, science fails to convince me there is no god, because I simply don't see enough evidence of non-existence. Of course, my concept of god has changed a lot since I was a Witness.

I think of terms of universal energies, now, not mean old narcissistic Bronze age warrior gods, issuing barbaric laws in a high handed fashion and killing people for not groveling enough. I don't know how appropriate it is to personalize them, but I think they are there.

I do believe in the supernatural. Why? Because I think it's just what some people call "quantum energy" now if they're scientists. Once I read about quantum physics, it made sense to me that this is what people have always called the nether realms, other dimensions of existence and it interacts with our dimension in some really interesting ways.

152

Are you a TRUE Christian?!?

by brotherdan in

i've been thinking alot over the past few days on what makes a christian a christian, and i'm coming to some different conclusions than i ever have.... the watchtower likes to use the term "true believers" or "true christians".

i'm at a loss here lately.

you are either an atheist or you are not.

mindmelda

I suppose that is why I embrace a kind of universal ecumenicism. Most religions have convergence of thought to a surprising degree when people bother to compare them.

They may choose to focus on their differences, which are mainly human and political in nature, but in essence of thought and teaching, quite similar.

Witnesses try to use this to prove that all religion but their's comes from Satan and that Satan imitates God to trick people, but it seems fruitless to do that if you get people to behave in a beneficial manner if you're promoting evil.

73

Why so many Atheist VS. Christian discussions here?

by mindmelda in

i notice a lot of the discussions seem to be atheist vs christian here.

or is that just my perception?.

but, do the other people who are neither just not care to debate as much or are there just fewer or them, or both?.

mindmelda

My problem is I have also seen science be Wrong and fail to use logic too and also, you can't forget that it's subject to human limitation.

From the Wall Street Journal, reviewing a book called "Wrong, Why the Experts Fail Us" by Daniel H. Freedman:

"We, are, as Mr. Freedman puts it. living in an age of 'punctuated wrongness', usually misled, occasionally enlightened. His goal is a broad account of this phenomenon, and how it takes shape in specific problems in measurement, how it spreads through the general idiocy of crowds, and how we might identify and avoid it. Bravo! Mr. Freedman turns to the right kind of experts to articulate general principles-biostatisticians, for example who can see deeper into how statistics than the average scientists in how data are gathered, analyzed and SCREWED UP. What makes "Wrong" so right- it being as good as any account of the general frailty of what we take as expert knowledge-is that it raises the right questions."

Also, "'Wrong' makes a powerful argument for the prevalance of scientific ineptitude."

The problem with science is two big ones..one is just like religion, it's mainly profit motivated. Oh mercy me, scientists are not doing what they're doing for the altruistic good of the human race. They do what they do to make MONEY. The other one is just like religion too...instead of looking for truth in dark corners, exploring the unexplored, it's easier to look where others already have, even if its a stupid place to look. It's like the drunk who was looking for his car keys under the lightpost instead of down the street in the dark where he lost them!

I like science as well as anyone, hell, I'm fascinated with it. But, I don't worship at it's altar nor make it a substitute for religion as my hope for the salvation of mankind. It's not a religion and shouldn't be treated as such. A guy in a white coat and a pocket protector is not a secular priest who hands out scientific miracles instead of supernatural ones.

Science is WRONG sometimes. It's got to be as subject to scrutiny and skepticism as religion is, or you're only applying that very useful trait to what disappointed you, and not even-handedly. You're not a dispassionate skeptic, you're just pissed off at religion for being illogical and unprovable when someone told you it was.

The whole point is Think for yourself, regardless of what it is. Religion, philosophy, science, whatever it is. Don't invest whole hog in it because it's presented to you in a neat box that says, Here, this will fix all your problems.

73

Why so many Atheist VS. Christian discussions here?

by mindmelda in

i notice a lot of the discussions seem to be atheist vs christian here.

or is that just my perception?.

but, do the other people who are neither just not care to debate as much or are there just fewer or them, or both?.

mindmelda

Oh, I don't mind the debate. I love debate, it's how we learn, in part, as long as it's understandable and doesn't degenerate into name calling! I just wondered why so much of it ends up being Athest vs Christian as if they're the only two options.

I'm neither. I didn't come out of the JW thing either an atheist or a Christian, although I'm comfortable around both if they don't beat me up with it.

I ended up sort of a well intentioned but largely ignorant Buddhist/humanist. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

It doesn't require belief in a God, or gods, but doesn't deny it either. I don't mind there being a God, as long as he doesn't play any "mean kid with a magnifying glass" games with me. If he doesn't exist, he doesn't matter because he's not doing any of the bad stuff, so why get pissed at him about it? If he's benevolent, it's happening for some other reason than God and he doesn't prevent it for some reason I'm incapable of understanding and I don't waste time pondering that stuff, because I'm incapable of understanding it. Makes no sense, simply because if I were God, I'd use my supposed omnipotence to fix everything, but hey, that's just me.

Maybe the universe needs chaos to function, it's as simple as that? I'm just throwing that out there, have no idea. Maybe we've personified order as God and chaos as the Devil it's as simple as that. I dunno, I like to think about this stuff.

I guess I'm the kind of person who likes to keep my options open.

Some people thrive on nailing these things down...I don't, I feel I need wiggle room or I'll suffocate intellectually.

55

Really annoying christian habbit

by bohm in

i know this is minor, but it bug me and i wonder if any fellow atheists have noticed it to.

im talking about the random capatalization.

like i can understand why you would write god with a big 'g', but whats up with writing he or him or the holy one or lord or whatever?.

mindmelda

Yeah Mat, about that. I love how almost al Witnesses think they know Greek and Hebrew because the WTS interprets a few words for them in a very um...self serving manner.

Finding how self serving their scholarship is about Hebrew and Greek was one of the really shocking things for me. I started talking to people who really speak Hebrew, for instance. They're called Jews and Hebrew hasn't changed awfully much. They laugh at how the WTS translates scriptures for their own purposes.

Same with Greek. An honest Greek scholar would find the NWT a huge joke. It's Propaganda Bible for the WTS, that's all. Some other Bibles have the same problem, of course. A good many of them were translated by a man or backed by a church who wanted it's teachings or agendas supported, especially in the New Testament.

The mistranslation and skewing of Pauls words to condemn homosexuality in a few scriptures in particular is very disturbing and has caused untold misery and violence.

Witnesses are no different than some others, they put in there what they want. Where religion is concerned, there's too much at stake not to. There is some religious honesty out there, and a few honest translations without underlying agendas, but it's not easily found when you're at the mercy of others to find it.

And then you have to wade through archaic language, mysticism, begats, Jewish history... I can see why people give up on reading the Bible and just let someone else like the WTS figure it out for them. It's a lot easier. Wrong, but easier. LOL

I found out enough to know they're dead wrong about some stuff...good enough for me.

15

born again

by cskyjw.sun in

john3:3"unless anyone is born again,he cannot see the kingdom of god".

this concept is not just restricted to the anointed ones,it applies to all christians.everyone needs to be transformed from the 'old ways' of living to one that is led by the holy spirit at whatever levels that one is able to attain..

mindmelda

I need new genes too. LOL I'm bipolar, have fibromyalgia and asthma. And maybe now a bad disc in my neck and one in my lower back.

I'd like my born again now, please.

All kidding aside, I have no problem with people believing that they're spiritually born again in any way. I believe I have been in that I feel a spiritually enlightened now in ways I never was before.

152

Are you a TRUE Christian?!?

by brotherdan in

i've been thinking alot over the past few days on what makes a christian a christian, and i'm coming to some different conclusions than i ever have.... the watchtower likes to use the term "true believers" or "true christians".

i'm at a loss here lately.

you are either an atheist or you are not.

mindmelda

Parables are useful for general principles, which is what they teach, I think, but for nailing down a specific point, nah. Like trying to nail jello to a tree.

73

Why so many Atheist VS. Christian discussions here?

by mindmelda in

i notice a lot of the discussions seem to be atheist vs christian here.

or is that just my perception?.

but, do the other people who are neither just not care to debate as much or are there just fewer or them, or both?.

mindmelda

I think bumbling around trying to figure it out is absolutely the best way to learn things EVER. I'm rarely bored, for one thing.

If we were meant to or it was better to learn any other way, we'd come completely pre-programmed and not have to learn a damned thing to get through life.

57

Toxic Relationships

by serenitynow! in

jw
friends

i have had it with my mother.

i've spoken on the board before about her.

she is fanatically religious, often keeps me on the phone for hours while she talks endlessly about the bible.

mindmelda

My mother was never able to be one wholly because she was abused herself, although she largely refused to admit it. She's now an agoraphobic who believes the whole world is evil, she hoards so she won't have to go out and meet evil worldly people and she rarely calls me. (yay!)

I never could buy into a lot of that, and even JW teachings. But I was used to going along, albeit reluctantly and passively,just to keep the peace, My dad is the same way. My brother left with his middle finger raised at her at 17. LOL

I don't hate her now but it took a lot of work and insight not to, she was nagging, controlling, OCD, narcissistic, and just plain old AWFUL to live with.

She was either that or totally depressed and ignored my brother and I, we never got anything in between much. Being a Witness made her worse in some ways, more self righteous and she already thought she was right about everything anyway.

I would never cut off my children which is one of many reasons I quit being a Witness. I don't love Jehovah or Jehovah's Witnesses more than my kids and how dare he ask such an inhumane and unnatural thing.

My kids are largely grown, are not Jehovah's Witnesses and think it's a scary as hell to be one because my mother is scary. I almost want to thank her sometimes for scaring them away from it!

Adult Children of Alcoholics helped me a lot. Living with the obsessive, and my mom is religiously obsessed and just OCD in general, is just like living with an alcoholic who is obsessed with drinking or a drug addict who is obsessed with drugging. She also rages when things are out of control, another obsessive trait.

Lots of "good" Witnesses seem like control freaks to me, and they have a ball bullying the ones who aren't. It's sort of a playground for those kinds of people, they're the only ones who seem to "rejoice" in it.

58

If You Are Christian, Please Check In Here :-)

by snowbird in

jw
friends

we've got lots of , , and .

syl.

mindmelda

I don't mind sermons, if they're good ones...like "I have a dream", by MLK. That was a good one, can't get enough of it. *eats a fish*