Posts by indireneed

16

Destroy or Reform the WT?

by ThiChi in

jw
friends

i ask this question: lets say for a moment the jw world does come crashing down (very unlikely).

who would fill the void left by the jws?

more moonies?

I don't think that it is a question of reform or destruction . . . the doctrines of the WT are for the most part non-destructive. What becomes destructive is their ability to change people's lives and to assert authority. This causes people to refuse blood transfusions, etc. However, in itself, having separate beliefes cannot be construed as bad, even if they cause a separation (look at the foundation of the US - freedom of religion, or the Amish, or perhaps the Mormons, etc. etc.)

So, it becomes a matter of how people are affected by their time in the WT. Or perhaps more importantly, how they affect others. I am affected becaues my wife is a JW and that makes my life difficult. I wish she would see some of the glaring inconsistencies, but she can't. My biggest problem is that the WT is setting itself up as an authority when it is not.

Although this is more a ramble than a post, I will just summarize by saying that it is not the doctrines that are bad, even the blood portion, but the tactics that are the problem (i.e. we are right, everyone else is wrong, hate those others). If people need these tactics, I guess then the JW serves its purpose. If people need to be told what to do, then I guess it's good. Much like any other religion, state, etc., it serves for some but not for others. I wish the GB was forced to accept their humanity. I just can't stand people who are not humble and think they have the only correct thoughts . . .

In conclusion, the WT can be reformed, and it will certainly not be destroyed, but not to make another 'god centered' organization that controls its members. It's just pointless.

60

Cross or Stake, which is biblically true??

by butalbee in

can somebody please explain to me biblically where it says jesus died on a stake and not a cross?

need theological details, please.

prove your stakely beliefs...

indireneed

My brother did a lot of research on this for me, and I trust his conclusion since he is a distinguished researcher and scholar of Roman and Greek history.

While ther is no direct proof for the use of the cross (and I'm not going to argue whether or not the cross was used), the WT's methodology on defining the Greek is wrong.

They state that there is no indication that the word was used to mean more than a stake before the New Testament. However, this is completely false. I do not have the exact names now, but there are four to five (at least) references to a stauros being made of two sticks perpendicular to one another before the time of Christ (several centuries) thus legitimating the use of stauros for either a stake or a cross.

Thus, to conclude using the WT's inferences is speculation, not fact as they would wish you to think. I don't care about doctrine, I simply dislike bad scholarship.

7

The Prophet

by jeannie in

hi i am new to this forum, so please bear with me.

i have a question from the book of john.

john is asked if he is the christ, he replies no, then he is asked if he is the prophet, he replies no.

indireneed

I certainly don't claim to be all that knowledgeable about this, but I remember reading a few things here and there.

First of all, it's important to remember that there were many conflicting Judaisms at the time - one of which was the group that took all the dead sea scrolls and fled.

Each group had its own ideas, much like all of Christianity and any other religion today. Some were very apocalyptic (like the JWs), others were very rule oriented (the Pharisees), others were skeptics (the Sadducees).

Anyway, everyone had their own interpretation of the old testament. all new of the promise of a Messiah, but they also knew of a reference to a 'great Prophet' by Moses. This Prophet was supposed to come at some future date (how vague can you get).

With only really one reference, this prophet could be related to one of the former prophets (Elijah, etc.) to the Messiah, or someone else. Everyone had their own opinion.

Another interesting note is that the Essnes (The dead sea scrolls) believed there would be two Messiahs - a king and a priest. The NT rolls these up into one, and Paul gives an explanation of how this is possible, by using Melchizadek as an example.

I find it interesting how religion has always been disputed - there was never one path, no matter how much any religion wants you to believe . . . and hence the different versions of Christ's life.

13

marrying a jw

by dorian in

hi i really need some help on this i would like to marry a jw female and she is disfellowshiped her family wants her to be reinstated and so do i but i would like to marry her also any help at all

indireneed

If the worst were to happen and your mate would return to the fold, your isolation will depend on the congregation in question. I spent a lot of time going to meetings with my wife before I decided I couldn't stand it any longer. However, they elder who we were friends with is still a geniunely nice person to me and listened to my reasons calmly and cooly. He is an excellent person, and I stopped going without a bad taste in my mouth as many others have.

Just remember, that it is a religion, although very controlling, and there are good and bad people. Just be ready and understand all the intricacies of what they will try and get you to sign in on.

Some advice - sit down and read Crisis of Conscience together. Plus, read a few other books together that take a neutral view on JW history. Don't read inflammatory, hearsay books, as they might convince your mate that everyone is out to 'persecute' the JWs.

Firm yourself up - it's better to understand first than to understand too late. I scrwed up - I didn't understand what my wife was getting into, and now I will pay for a long time. Hopefully, in the end, things will get better. But its a hard struggle.

13

marrying a jw

by dorian in

hi i really need some help on this i would like to marry a jw female and she is disfellowshiped her family wants her to be reinstated and so do i but i would like to marry her also any help at all

indireneed

The fact is, it all depends on what the ex-JW wants out of life. A real JW would not marry a non-JW. It is forbidden, although it happens a lot.
If you marry, and your significant returns to the fold, then your life will become very difficult. You will have to learn either to be JW or you will have to come to terms with completely opposite world views.

If you marry, and your significant other does not want to return, then your marriage will likely be strengthened by the fact that they made a decision to be with you rather than with an organization.

Just remember, it all depends on whether you feel marriage is right. If so, go for it. Talk about it first though - lay the ground rules. Explain that you will never by a JW and thus if he or she returns, you will have no part of it. That way, it is clear up front. And mention you will not let you kids be raised JWs.

11

marrying jw

by dorian in

jw
friends

hey i have a questio i am a non jw and i would like to marry a jw that is disfelllowshiped because of me any help possible

indireneed

Just a point to add to Frenchy's good advice . . .

If the worst were to happen and your mate would return to the fold, your isolation will depend on the congregation in question. I spent a lot of time going to meetings with my wife before I decided I couldn't stand it any longer. However, they elder who we were friends with is still a geniunely nice person to me and listened to my reasons calmly and cooly. He is an excellent person, and I stopped going without a bad taste in my mouth as many others have.

Just remember, that it is a religion, although very controlling, and there are good and bad people. Just be ready and understand all the intricacies of what they will try and get you to sign in on.

Some advice - sit down and read Crisis of Conscience together. Plus, read a few other books together that take a neutral view on JW history. Don't read inflammatory, hearsay books, as they might convince your mate that everyone is out to 'persecute' the JWs.

Firm yourself up - it's better to understand first than to understand too late. I scrwed up - I didn't understand what my wife was getting into, and now I will pay for a long time. Hopefully, in the end, things will get better. But its a hard struggle.

11

marrying jw

by dorian in

jw
friends

hey i have a questio i am a non jw and i would like to marry a jw that is disfelllowshiped because of me any help possible

indireneed

The fact is, it all depends on what the ex-JW wants out of life. A real JW would not marry a non-JW. It is forbidden, although it happens a lot.

If you marry, and your significant returns to the fold, then your life will become very difficult. You will have to learn either to be JW or you will have to come to terms with completely opposite world views.

If you marry, and your significant other does not want to return, then your marriage will likely be strengthened by the fact that they made a decision to be with you rather than with an organization.

Just remember, it all depends on whether you feel marriage is right. If so, go for it. Talk about it first though - lay the ground rules. Explain that you will never by a JW and thus if he or she returns, you will have no part of it. That way, it is clear up front. And mention you will not let you kids be raised JWs.

36

Okay Bible Supporters: Support this One

by FreePeace in

jw
friends

there have been so many bible thumping posts lately, i thought i would offer an anti-bible article from my truthquest website.

i wait with bated breath to see how bible supporters will rationalize and explain this one.. .

atrocities of the bible: the midianites .

indireneed

This kind of question always pissed me off when I was being indoctrinated in a very religious, very strict, very Protestant primary school. Such a loving God was so inspiring of fear and self-hatred.

My sister-in-law brought up a pretty good point about the Bible - old and new testament. In order to fully identify with the ideals and concepts held within its pages, it is necesarry to divorce oneself from modern society and adopt a very anitquated concept of good and evil.

For example, the paradise that so many JWs are looking forward to is a rural person's paradise - it is not what a modern thinking person would consider paradise. Does everyone want to be a farmer? Does everone want to live near Jersulam (I shiver at the thought . . .) The fact is, this is a world without government, without roads, without technology, without division of labor. Thus, in order for there to be roads, etc. Jesus would have to intervene since each person will be tending to his own needs.

Anyway, in order to understand the Old Testament, one cannot look at the good/evil context that we see today. It was not evil to destroy people and rape their wives - this was normal. But today, we like to think we are more civilized. I like to think that too. That's why I can't always make excusese for what the merciful god did of the Bible.

If the Bible is truly a 'timeless' book, why do we need to make up excuses? Why do we have to explain to ourselves why god would kill tens of thousands of people simply for existing in their ignorance? Of course, that's what JWs look forward to everyday. I can't wait till god's mercy is shown so explicitly . . .

Oh well. If they want to live in the past, I guess it's their prerogrative. They should start their farm life soon though - maybe they should merge with the Amish.

26

I'v got to tell something this!

by voltaire in

jw
friends

i've posted several times about how i'm fed up with the witnesses but my wife won't budge.

she's become a bit more tolerant lately, but mostly we get along better when we don't talk about anything substantive.

i've been working up the nerve to tell the elders why i don't go out anymore.

indireneed

This is a tough situation, and one in which I have a few parallels with my life. My wife and I married, and then she became a JW, probably because of many random, very significant reasons.

Anyway, the question is, is it worth giving up your wife for another woman. In reality, the important thing to remember is that every relationship, and I mean every relationship, will have troubles. Big troubles, little troubles, medium troubles. There will always be a catch, as well as good points.

So, it's not an easy decision. I love my wife - I don't love her JW tendencies now, but I love her. Will she change? Maybe, maybe not. Will I change? Yup. Should we break up? Maybe, maybe not.

In truth, you have to look at your life from more than one angle. Right now, it seems foolish to live with your wife while you've got the cutie on your arm. But what about when you find that your lives are completely different - The Latin and US societies are as different as Protestants and JWs. There will be problems. There will be compromises.

Don't give up your wife because you want to screw around. Give up your wife because you have to. Look at what you want, what you have to gain, and what you have to lose.

If it's over, end it. If there is a chance, don't count a bird in the bush as given unless you know everything everthing.

9

be patient: lets hope the world does not end soon

by malian in

jw
friends

like many others, i have not been able to change the views of my dear love, who has been brain-washed by the wts...(sigh).... however, i am waiting for the prophecy of 1914 to fail; the world will live on, and our loved ones will at least have a seed of doubt planted in their mind.

to all: be patient!

i think that it will be a real eye-opener for many.

indireneed

Richard,
I whole hartedly agree with you as far as the incorrect dates changing people's opinion goes.

What I meant to say was that it alone will not destroy people's belief in the Watchtower. I would guess that you had probably already started to doubt that the WT was the 'one and only' channel of God, which made you call into question their new light crap.

I think that missed dates are a great way of shoving the wedge in further. I just don't believe that they do much with people 'on fire' with the truth. Too many avoidance tactics.

I don't mean to say that individuals are enlightened by these things. I meant more the organization as a whole . . . heaven knows they've already failed thousands of times!