i get sick and tired of hearing the watchtower lie that they.
have no 'clergy- laity' distinction.. the hypocrisy in this is almost incredible.
the society wants.
I believe that the clergy / laity distinction runs even deeper in the WT than in other religions.
There are two classes of people - chosen by faith and chosen by works. One has privileges, the other doesn't. And, to top it off, there is a strict number that was filled eighty years ago.
Talk about a strong clergy - imagine the Pope announcing that the ranks of the clergy were filled for all time eighty years ago.
since there are new people coming to this board on fairly regular basis with questions about the jw religion, i thought i'd pose this topic.. many, upon leaving the organization, don't really know where to turn for guidance.
"look to yourself" doesn't really cut it when you've been told how to think your whole life.. many choose atheism, which is fine.
however, for those still looking for a religion, here is a site that lists many of the worlds major religious movements.
That's really a neat little 'quiz'. I tend to find quizzes completely annoying, but for someone that is not all that interested in religion, it's a good little link to see if there is someone else out there who thinks about things like you.
Hm. I didn't pop up as being a JW. But my upbringing did show through - liberal Protestant. Pretty damn liberal, if I do say so myself.
Nice post Xander.
it appears that alot of people on this board believe in evolution (either by that name or by another) as the explanation for the origins of life.
to those people i would sincerely ask the following:.
1. where did plants come from?.
With evolution, it is important to remember that it is not fact, but rather a scientific revelation. It could be wrong, or it could be right. However, there is no disputing that there is evidence that contradicts a 7-day (or any number under several billion) creation of the earth.
To me, the changes that we see in everday life are evolution. For example, species 'change' or evolve to inhabit their surroundings. One species learns how to adapt to a new situation, and this is evolution.
Also, look at wisdom teeth. Some people have them now, but some people don't. Why is this? Because there is no space in the mouth. Our ancestors had wisdom teeth, and they fit. So why is this changing? Because of our diet. Because we are changing, our bodies are changing.
This is not simply 'chance' - it is rather dynamic evolution occuring as we chew our food . . .
the following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.
according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.
matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.
This is a pretty interesting argument that I've thought of myself. Looking at this from the point of view of someone who is not a Christian, this is my assessment.
#1. The idea that there are three Mary Magdelene's is pretty funny. If so, maybe can I suggest there was more than one Jesus? One who thought he was god and one who didn't. Or perhaps a second and third John . . . there are three epistles of John. The Bible usually refers to a second person of same name by using another last name or 'the other', for example, the two Judas mentioned in the Bible. So, asserting that there were three, not identical Mary Magdelene's, is like trying to argue the Trinity. There are arguments for, there are arguments against, but in the end, it's an apology.
#2. The ample existence of god is all around us. However, there is also ample existence of a god not from the Bible. One simply has to choose which they prefer to accept. Do you accept dinasours, geological time, cavemen and fossils? Or do you emphasize orderliness, existence, etc. The fact is, you can't disprove god and you can't prove god. Hell, it's hard enough to prove that we're alive (I think therefor I am . . .)
#3. I think viewpoints are irrelevant. We're not talking about viewpoints here, we are talking about inspired scripture - i.e., infallible, in-your-face, given by god scripture. Thus, viewpoints should not cloud the vision. If women should not speak in meetings, then women should not speak in meetings. If Mary saw Jesus before Peter, than she saw Jesus before Peter. Different viewpoints are fine, as long as they do not conflict, the question is, do they really conflict?
#4. My opinion: I think that these accounts do conflict. I believe that different men wrote different things at different times. Maybe Jesus was divine, maybe he was inspired, but the Bible is just a hollow image. It's got good points and bad points, but it is not 'alive'. It pisses me off that people take what they want literally and what they don't want figuratively. Oh, women just can't give talks . . . no, they shouldn't speak unless to their husband after the meeting. What a joke.
i have to ask this although i have a feeling i dont really want to read the responses but anyway.
i talked to several people here today who dont believe there is a god at all.
this is disturbing!
I've often thought about the question of whether there is a god, and many times, I've gotten rather worked up about it.
I was raised in a rather non-religious family, but attended a very religious Christian school. I saw much love in my family, but little love in this ultra-right wing school. I decided I wanted nothing to do with their brand of 'love'.
While I was attending secondary school, I was told the story about the three blind men and the horse, and it helped me to develop my thoughts on good. Each blind man thought a part of the horse was god, but didn't really understand the complete picture.
That's how I picture any god that there might be. Humans are human, by nature, and cannot understand what 'god' would really be. We like to judge, we like to condemn, we like to fight and kill, therefore we project oursevles onto any god that there might be. We want him in our image . . . and we excuse this by saying that we are in his image.
The lives we are living are wonderful, even if we are depressed. While it might not always seem that way, existing is much better than not existing. And for this reason, life is a gift.
Is there a god? I believe that there is something that had to start creation of the universe. While I believe evolution is clearly disputable, I believe there is too much evidence for an evolutionary take on development. However, evolution and the big bang don't describe where it all comes from, and they never will. Was it god? Was it nature? It doesn't matter. It was something.
Does god care for us individually? Yes, he has given us each life as individuals, and whether he follows closely or allows us simply to live, he has already been kind to us.
I don't think god would ever come and judge us for not worshipping him. Would you kill a dog because he disobeys without real thought? Probably. But you are human. If you were perfect, had the chance to train the dog perfectly but didn't, and then had a puppy, would you kill the puppy because the dog was bad?
Remember, there must be something out there. Life came from somewhere. God need not be angry or human. Develop your own thoughts, develop your own feelings. If you believe in the god of the Bible, great. I believe that the Bible mirrors what god could be like. Once again, it's blind and only grabbing a part and projecting humanity, but there are good parts of the Bible and Christianity.
A little lengthy, but it was fun to write.
i have a quick question: what is jehovah's will today and who is doing it?
Although I do not espouse any religion, my personal opinion is that if there is a god, and he is interested in our affairs, then his will is that we find our own place in the world and learn how to become 'more evolved' socially, or how to perform better as humans.
My thoughts are that it is ridiculous to assume that there is a god who 'demands' things of us. If he simply wanted peons who would obey his commands, he would have simply created them with superior knowledge. Why would he create beings that he feared would end up in rebellion . . . what's the point.
I believe that god is too big to understand, and that humans by definition, cannot understand him. Certain portions of all religions reflect him, but do not really understand him.
If there is an afterlife, great. I don't think what we do destroys or betters that - but we must learn. If there isn't an afterlife, quite honestly I'm happy to have a life, no matter how short. It is a gift just to be alive.
to all those offended by the wt's behavior :.
one of the biggest cause of confusion among loyal ones to the wt org.
today, and those dissenting, is the very concept of what to expect from jehovah's organization on earth.
I think that you've brought up a really interesting question. To make it a little more concise, are the people of God still the people of God even if they are imperfect?
This has been the question for centuries and has caused hatred, death, strife, etc. When the Protestants broke from the Catholics, a huge rift formed in the Christian congregations (that had before been held together by repression and domination) that caused its splintering. The JWs are a splinter group with some rather different doctrinal issues, but all in all they profess the same ideas.
Therefore, why do we accept one Christian religion and not another? The JWs feel that it is simply the presence of Satan - a rather easy person to blame everything on. Thus, anyone who is not a JW is a part of Satan, and Satan caused these problems to occur . . .
The dividing line comes in places like Revelation that lead to speculation about the 'Great Whore's' identity. Catholicism? Christendom? Another religion?
Perhap's John's thoughts were about the Roman empire. Perhaps they weren't. People have been trying to make an argument because nothing really fits this prophecy.
So, people hate each other, very unlike what Jesus did while he was on earth. Christianity was to be meek, humble, not self-haughty. But everyone who feels they are right and others are wrong are being exactly these things. Yes, Jesus denounced others, but he was superhuman. We have no right. That was his point.
So, should a true Christian try to find his own path? Yes, definitely. Should a true Christian denounce other religions. I don't think so. I think that is against what Christ taught. Hate the acts - if you think fornication is bad, then don't do it. But don't hate the religion. It's time Satan got a break.
hi all!.
can anyone point out clear and intentional distortions in jws translations and interpretations?
dishonesty in translation?
My brother and I went over alot of these points trying to find a chink in the armour to save my wife, but we never got very far. My brother is a well-known Latin/Greek scholar.
Some of the glaring examples include John 1:1, the use of the word 'torture stake' and Philippians 2:6.
The problem is that the JW rendering in these passages can be attributed to other scholars who have made the same argument, and thus it is difficult to 'disprove' them.
Therefore, their real 'error' is to present their opinion as fact and assume that their followers should do what they tell them, when in fact there is a great amount of doubt surrounding the passage. For example, torture stake has arguments for and against, but they discount all arguments against and perhaps short change these opposing views.
There are not unlike most other religions in assuming they are the right and directed organization - it is their use of this power that differs, so like the antiquated Catholic use of heresy trials in order to avoid disturbance.
news article in today's paper is entitled "credit catholics for cleaning house" by stanley crouch (new york daily news).
"somehow in our nation we are almost always called upon to lead the way when it comes to things of human concern.. "that is why, after all these years of the catholic church's hiding behind cathedral doors, miters and robes, we should be glad that boston's cardinal bernard law has ignored the dictates of rome and called on his clergy to report to the police all the charges of sexual abuse of children by priests..............."
The more I think about it, the more I realize the JW religion is very much like the Catholic religion. A couple things off the top of my mind:
Their belief that their organization is directly led by god.
The belief that their writings are inspired and are basically 'infallible' except by their change
Their doctrinal beliefs.
Of course, I don't mean to imply that other religions don't have this, but the JWs and Catholics combine all these things. I also don't want to imply that either group is bad, just that the JWs have adopted the same ideals/organization as their most dreaded enemy.
we know the wt society has a long history of prophecies, especially regarding dates.
almost 100% of such prophecy was in error.. it seems though, that they got a date right by foretelling that 1914 would be "the end of the world as we know it".
yes, they changed the meaning of 1914 several times.
I don't think their 'prediction' of 1914 was anything out of the ordinary.
Imagine the number of Millenial religions at the turn of the 20th century. Each had their own date scheme, and each had their own way of seeing things.
Now, with hundreds of Millenial cults, and hundreds of predicted dates, one had to come true. Well, 1914 was pivotal on the world stage, so the JWs decided to abandon their 20 other dates and go with that one.
'Biblical' chronology is crap. I don't mean the Bible, I mean trying to use it to predict things. Why don't you just go to Nostradamus and you can convince yourself that maybe he is the Son of God. Or perhaps, the Mayans, who predicted the end of the world pretty close to know.
1914 is what it is - a date that the JWs came up with but were completely wrong on. It doesn't mean they were right - there is no spectacular change in society since 1914. In fact, we are just now becoming more like the period before 1914 'globalization' wise. We are not in a new era, we are just in one of the repitious cycles.
Don't forget, there have been apocalyptic soothsayers ever since the Bible was written.
