"God" has been painted as someone (at least to me) as someone "exacting exclusive devotion" and us paltry humans as being "unable to direct our own steps".
It is all just the guilt that Flipper spoke of in a previous thread
wantarevolution
JoinedPosts by wantarevolution
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17
Sigh
by wantarevolution ini'm tired, i'm tired of feeling guilty all the time, tired of feeling manipulated into doing something that i am sure that i do not want to do anymore.. i am just back from a few days in madrid at our assembly.
despite myself i found myself enjoying some of the talks - particulary some on saturday.
but probably not the right reasons.
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17
Sigh
by wantarevolution ini'm tired, i'm tired of feeling guilty all the time, tired of feeling manipulated into doing something that i am sure that i do not want to do anymore.. i am just back from a few days in madrid at our assembly.
despite myself i found myself enjoying some of the talks - particulary some on saturday.
but probably not the right reasons.
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wantarevolution
I'm tired, i'm tired of feeling guilty all the time, tired of feeling manipulated into doing something that i am sure that I do not want to do anymore.
I am just back from a few days in Madrid at our assembly. Despite myself i found myself enjoying some of the talks - particulary some on Saturday. But probably not the right reasons. A lot of the talks were based around ourselves and our relationships with others - and I realised - these talks were about being "good humans" not good "christians". I started feeling a bit depressed, because i realised how mindless some of the brothers are, that they have to wait until being told from the platform how not to backbite and gossip etc.
I want out, i really do - I know we are part of a cult (on a side point, my wife was reading something on Wikipedia, and what ever it was led to the article on cults, which states the following definition of a cult ....
- People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations;
- Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
- They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader;
- They get a new identity based on the group;
- They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled
All she said to me was "jeez, it sounds like us" before quickly changing the subject - showing she is ion the same path as me, just a few steps behind.
I just want out - it is that simple , and IF the BIG A does come, i'd at least like to be able to stand there and think "at least I was true to myself"
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Spanish JW's Upset Over Bethel Move
by Gary1914 inon april 1, 2009 a letter was sent from the governing body of jehovahs witnesses to congregations in spain informing them that the printing, shipping, and storage of watchtower publications would be discontinued at the madrid branch office.
the letter expressed confidence that the spanish witnesses would, despite the move, continue to generously support the world wide work and ends with an appeal to remain united under the direction of the witness leadership.. at a glance, this story may seem like a non-issue, perhaps, just another example of reorganization and consolidation within a multinational corporation; however, the dissolution of the printing branch has caused considerable hard feelings among some of jehovahs witnesses in spain.
to understand the reason we must first look at the history behind the branch office and external factors that some feel prompted this abrupt move.. early in their history, jehovahs witnesses began printing their trademark watchtower magazines and associated books and tracts in-house at their bethel headquarters in brooklyn, new york.
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wantarevolution
gracias por la aclaración - ¿De dónde eres? some sad people up at the bethel i'm sure - hopefully for some of them at least, their life is going to truely begin
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How do the French worldlings view the non kissy dubs?
by hamsterbait inokay - we all know that in many cultures embracing and kissing of cheeks is part of good manners - like in the english speaking world we shake hands.. i was told by a french friend that to pull away when somebody goes to kiss your cheek in a social situation is as rude as snatching your hand behind your back when offered a handshake.
(i cringe though when somebodys child whom i have never met offers each cheek in turn to be kissed in social introductions.).
i note that the kissing is more common in the south.
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wantarevolution
Bullshit! Well at least in Spain anyway...
Two kisses are manditory at meetings, assemblies, when you meet each other for fieldservice etc. Some of the older brothers used to be that way (that men and women shouldn't kiss at meetings) but all the spanish brothers and sisters I know do it anyway. It is cultural and meaningless as regards sex.
The only time you would tend to shake hands is if you meet someone for the first time at a kingdom hall. If you were introduced to anyone elsewhere (excluding business settings) then the rule is "dos besos" (two kisses). Hell even men (friends) kiss each other on the cheeks - now THAT one took a couple of weeks to get used to.
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Did the elders in your congregation give counsel to those that were DATING? Good or bad counsel?
by BonaFide ini have heard some doozies.
some elders forbid the couple from sitting together at the meetings unless they are engaged.
i have heard that said from the platform.
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wantarevolution
it's weird, cos when my wife and I got together, it was pretty much the exact opposite - we were basically ignored, in a good way. No tuts when we arrived at meetings or parties together. Also it was pretty much a given that we hung out together in each others apartments all the time - sometimes our flatmates were there ,sometimes not. It is just how it rolls in this congregation.
Even "the talk" before we got married was more about our responsibilites towards each other - and then there was the question of it being honourable - it was more "and of course , it has been an honourable courtship, hasn't it?" before going back to how we can honour jehovah and eachother.
However, just because the elders and others were nice, doesn't mean the whole thing isn't bullshit
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Spanish JW's Upset Over Bethel Move
by Gary1914 inon april 1, 2009 a letter was sent from the governing body of jehovahs witnesses to congregations in spain informing them that the printing, shipping, and storage of watchtower publications would be discontinued at the madrid branch office.
the letter expressed confidence that the spanish witnesses would, despite the move, continue to generously support the world wide work and ends with an appeal to remain united under the direction of the witness leadership.. at a glance, this story may seem like a non-issue, perhaps, just another example of reorganization and consolidation within a multinational corporation; however, the dissolution of the printing branch has caused considerable hard feelings among some of jehovahs witnesses in spain.
to understand the reason we must first look at the history behind the branch office and external factors that some feel prompted this abrupt move.. early in their history, jehovahs witnesses began printing their trademark watchtower magazines and associated books and tracts in-house at their bethel headquarters in brooklyn, new york.
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wantarevolution
ok some things i picked up...
1)they are being asked to quit bethel - this means NO social benefit of any kind. They are also going to be asked to sign a document stating that they are owed nothing more from bethel (this is standard practise in Spain, after leaving or being asked to leave any job or position-voluntary or paid)
2) Members that are considered long term (20 years or so, the details are kind of foggy) will be made special pioneers and can choose where to serve, which given the cost of living in certain parts of spain is not so bad a thing). people serving beyond 5 years will be made regular pioneers and asked to go to various places throughout the field. People with less than 5 years will be appointed regulars whereever they end up.
3)They are trying to sell the bethel complex or the land at Torrejon/ajavir, which is, which due to the printing undertaken , huge. However the assembly hall across the street will remain in the property of the surrounding circuits who finance it. It is in the middle of an industrial area, so selling the land probably won't be so hard. They are going to purchase land and build a smaller bethel for around the 50-100 (MAX) that will remain.
My friend who is at bethel is of course being asked to quit, however she is a lucky one - her father has a great business and so will be able to slip in there , she also starts an accounting course in september to beef up her "outside skills". Likewise, she is not going to regular pioneer :D
I'm sure we are going to recieve a letter soon with a positive spin on it
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28
Spanish JW's Upset Over Bethel Move
by Gary1914 inon april 1, 2009 a letter was sent from the governing body of jehovahs witnesses to congregations in spain informing them that the printing, shipping, and storage of watchtower publications would be discontinued at the madrid branch office.
the letter expressed confidence that the spanish witnesses would, despite the move, continue to generously support the world wide work and ends with an appeal to remain united under the direction of the witness leadership.. at a glance, this story may seem like a non-issue, perhaps, just another example of reorganization and consolidation within a multinational corporation; however, the dissolution of the printing branch has caused considerable hard feelings among some of jehovahs witnesses in spain.
to understand the reason we must first look at the history behind the branch office and external factors that some feel prompted this abrupt move.. early in their history, jehovahs witnesses began printing their trademark watchtower magazines and associated books and tracts in-house at their bethel headquarters in brooklyn, new york.
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wantarevolution
Well lets treat this as if it were a normal corporation in Spain (from the workers point of view)
1. I hate my job, I quit - i can't claim social benefit even though i have been paying into it, and so has my company
2. I love my job, but they are moving overseas - i get 45 days pay, plus unemployment for upto 2 years because I and my employer have paid into social security.
I think, knowing the crooks at bethel, that it is going to be option 1, they will be forced to quit and not be able to claim anything - even emergency.
I will ask though - i am going to be sure to bring up the point about social welfare as i know it is at the heart of it
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Spanish JW's Upset Over Bethel Move
by Gary1914 inon april 1, 2009 a letter was sent from the governing body of jehovahs witnesses to congregations in spain informing them that the printing, shipping, and storage of watchtower publications would be discontinued at the madrid branch office.
the letter expressed confidence that the spanish witnesses would, despite the move, continue to generously support the world wide work and ends with an appeal to remain united under the direction of the witness leadership.. at a glance, this story may seem like a non-issue, perhaps, just another example of reorganization and consolidation within a multinational corporation; however, the dissolution of the printing branch has caused considerable hard feelings among some of jehovahs witnesses in spain.
to understand the reason we must first look at the history behind the branch office and external factors that some feel prompted this abrupt move.. early in their history, jehovahs witnesses began printing their trademark watchtower magazines and associated books and tracts in-house at their bethel headquarters in brooklyn, new york.
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wantarevolution
FYI - I will be at bethel for dinner on Saturday night (english assembly in Madrid), a friend of mine is there, and being "put out to the field". I will see what i can find out.
Any specific questions?
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47
What are the Major Issues with Jehovah's Witnesses?
by AllTimeJeff init's safe to say that in most instances, it appears that the catalyst for the final move away from jw's, the real start of a road toward a jw exit, is something that affected you personally, whether that was you or a loved one/family member.
we hit our personal bs level, can't take it anymore,.
then we start to examine the flaws of jw dogma.. i would suggest that most do not start a jw exit because they examine the dogma on a personal study project and find out that something isn't right.
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wantarevolution
In my case, it is a mixed bag
1) i studied history to a fairly advanced level, and I am able to contextualise events into a time frame very easily purely because it was what I was trained to do. My "this is BS-o-metre" used to go "ding ding" in the prophecy books, but not the ones such as 607 etc, you don't need a particular skill to see through that one - the ones that ticked me off were the assemblies or talks that were "trumpet blasts". Whenever i think of assemblies, i know for a fact that they are only reported on in the papers cos they bring in money to the local economy, rather the content of the talks, which most witnesses zone out of at the best of times.I r
But this is all part of the "self-important" rhetoric of the organisation, they have "ultimate truth", they "know" the best way for us to walk though life and perhaps worst of all - they HAVE ultimate authority over our interpersonal relationships.
2) I grew up in a great hall, no doubt about it - my father was PO for all my young life, and was famous around our circuit for instituting "no jacket days" for the brothers doing the mic's or reading the watchtower, or taking the watchtower for that matter during the summer if it was particularly hot. There wasn't a hierarchy in our hall, my best friend was the son of a single mother who in a past existance had been a drug addict. I remember i was in a bar one night with a friend, and another friend called up and said that she was showing an american friend around the city, did we want to meet up, of course I said yeah, and this guy shows up with her- lovely guy from seattle. Anyway, we got on to talking about the congregation, when he asked in a real serious way "what do you call you PO", my own response was "well I call him dad" - he nearly fell out of his chair, cos he wouldn't have been considered worthy to hang out with a PO's kids in the states - it was my first "huh" moment that there was distinctions out there.
Fast forward to a 2 years ago, I move to my present hall - and it is totally different. The PO doesn't know I exist, the pioneers are lauded as special even though i know for a fact that none of them got their hours in last year and aside from 1 elder who was just appointed, i have not seen any others out socially, even though there is an active social life in congregation.
I feel part of another church, not the warm hall i grew up in - it makes me miserable, but it contributes to my feelings about the "stream of time".
Basically i think a good equation for someone leaving the truth =
(Personal Experiences) ± (examining believe system) = freedom
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What did you do to piss the brothers off?
by Pleasuredome inwhen you were getting fed up with meetings before you gave up, was there anything you did to deliberately get on the brothers nerves?.
i turned up to a meeting once with jeans on, and a red top with cccp on it with the 'hammer and sickle'.
i also went to another bs group a few times so that if i wasnt at one group they'd think i was at the other and vice versa.
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wantarevolution
the major one for me in my old hall was always turning in a field service report 1 hour under the country average - they could never understand why i wasn't reaching out.
I would consistantly go to the hall we shared with's meeting when there was a concert or game i wanted to watch - (when the world cup was in Korea i would be at the pub watching the game (with an elder, who is now no longer one and inactive, and still one of my best mates) and drinking beer at 10 am on a sunday morning, then go for a big fry up, before rocking up to the meeting - he took the watchtower, I read :)
I was never an attendant at assemblies or on car park, officially cos I wanted to listen to the talks, unofficially because i was lazy and had found a surefire way of entertaining myself through the assembly (by playing "assembly bingo" with my friends)
whenever I would meet with any elders (Aside from the one above) they would always "encourage" me to do more in jehovah's service and sigh when i said that i felt by concentrating on my bible reading and keeping up with the speed of jehovah's organisation was more than enough