Posts by Inquiry

28

Lost My Job Part 3

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

well, there's another update... .

if you missed my previous 2 posts, here's some to catch up...part one and part two.

i emailed the township trustee and i told her of my situation and that he found out from my dad that i lost my job at wal-mart and i have been trying to buy time to find another job with no avail.

Inquiry

Well Yiz... I don't know what to say.... I'm unable to help, but I feel really bad for you.

I hope this works out for you.

Inq

32

Dilemmas......What is their Purpose?

by Siddhashunyata in

jw
friends

.

what is the purpose of moral dilemmas?

do they point us to god or to ourselves?

Inquiry

Hey Sidd....

What is the purpose of moral dilemmas? Do they point us to God or to ourselves?

Why on earth do you pose your question this way? First of all, the question is already loaded. By adding the term, moral... there is already implied a pattern conformity, structure, faith....there are so many different perspectives on "Moral" that it is impossible to define them all... and using moral to quantify dilemma... now that's another ball game altogether.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.... Moral - 1. pertaining to, or concerned with the principles of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical; moral attitudes. 2. conforming to accepted or established principles of right conduct (opposed to immoral); virtuous; upright; a moral man. 3. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct; a moral novel. 4. based on fundamental principles or right conduct reather than on law. custom, etc. moral obligations 5. capable of recongnizing and conforming to the rules of right conduct; a moral being. 6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste. 7. pertaining to or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character; moral support. 8. based on strong probability; virtual; a moral certainty. 9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc. 10. morals, principles, standards, or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.

You also gave us a limitation... "Do they point us to God or ourselves?" ... Why does the prospect of a dilemma necessitate having to aspire to godly or altruistic qualities... What if a dilemma is something completely different. You propose in your question that its a tool to point us to God or ourselves... What if dilemmas are just problems we have in life, some more severe than others... but not a tool... just an experience... certainly some dilemmas are instructive... we can learn from the outcome of a dilemma... we can like or dislike the outcome.. we can attribute morals to the outcome.. but does the outcome have to lead us to God or to ourselves? I don't think so.

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.... Dilemma - 1. a situation requiring a choice between equally undesirable alternatives. 2. any perplexing situation or problem. 3. a form or syllogism in which the major premise is formed of two or more conditional propositions and the minor premis is a disjunctive proposition, as "If A, then B; if C then D. Either A or C. Therefore, either B or D.

Note: no mention of morals....

A mother is giving birth but if she does, she will die and the child will live. If she does not give birth she will live and the child will die. The mother is unconscious and you are the doctor. You decide.

Does this condition point to faith in god or does it cause something else to happen within the doctor ?

There is no moral in this dilemma... The dilemma itself is not moral or immoral. People can apply morals to the decision... but not the dilemma. The doctor will adhere to a code of conduct... either believed or taught... but probably taught... he is obligated to uphold the standards and accepted practices of his chosen vocation, he will also protect himself.. Especially if he makes a mistake. What if the doctor doesn't believe in God? How does that affect his choice? or his morals?

Brummie, yes that is exactly what I'm getting at. These things are happening all the time and in unimaginable ways. The question of purpose goes to the core of the nature of God.

Really? Large statement... your question now lends itself to God creating the dilemma in the first place. Are all dilemmas God's doing? What does the above mentioned dilemma actually attribute to the nature of God? That he would put a man in a position to decide one life is more important than another? Really? If God purposed the dilemma, then it follows that he purposed the outcome... to wit... one life is more valuable than the other.... Too large an argument for you to try to prove... probability is already working against you here.

The feelings of the one who decides , this is where the dilemma has force. Either decision has an undesirable perhaps heartbreaking result. What is God doing that he would put man in a position where he cannot clearly see what is moraly correct but he must act and his action means death for someone?

Again, what if the person has no belief in God.... and prove that God put the man in that position... There is no morally correct in choosing one life over another. How can someone be morally correct in that situation? ... both outcomes are undesirable...the doctor simply acts to save who has the best chance of survival... not who he thinks is more deserving of life...

Introspection, correct . I'm trying to point out that , in the ordinary sense, dilemmas, as we know them by dualistic thinking, dilemmas point us away from faith in God .

Quite a conclusion.... and we know dilemma's by dualistic thinking? Ummm, dualistic thinking is the premise for dilemmas...Really?... there is way too much assumption going on here... in this conclusion, you actually make the assertion that experiencing dilemmas is counteractive to faith in God, but you assert earlier that God actually makes the dilemmas....oh, brother ... and I've got some land in Florida for sale... it's only 30 feet under water and I'll throw in the gators for free....

That they , dilemmas, in the ordinary sense, turn us inward by way of confusion and disillusionment. They cannot have a God appointed purpose because they do not build faith in God but turn us inward. Therefore the existence of dilemmas, as we know them on the dualistic level, works in the direction of nondualistic thinking and away from the trappings of "Belief". Dilemmas shock the Believer and if he is honest he will be pointed to nonbelief and finally to "what is", neither belief nor nonbelief. But to explain this is not to help some here because what we are talking about is not easily understood.

Quoting from what work? Exactly what are you preaching here? This sounds like a mix of Existentialism , fundamentalism and a touch of Krishnamurti...

Ed, yes that's exactly what they do. We reflect and if we believe in God then we reflect on why he allows such things and why he allows men to be in such positions. In that sense dilemmas build "character" but they subvert faith (unless we go into denial). So we ask why would God build character and tear down faith? Confusion sets in and if we don't let it alone disillusionment comes on and ,if we keep at it, we are on our way to a religious crisis. If fear does not overtake us we will begin to ask who am I and what am I doing?

So being faithful to God means living in denial? We have to relegate truths in life to obscurity because we have to worry about disillusionment coming on? I already know who I am.. and I know what I'm doing... Don't want a religious crisis?... Don't have a religion.... quite simple really.... I have a question for you..... who the heck are you and what are you doing?

*edited for spelling...*sigh*

Inq

From the whatever class

Edited by - Inquiry on 21 January 2003 10:59:16

30

I got an e-mail for a long-lost dub friend

by Mackin in

jw
friends

there is this woman i used to correspond with back in my dub days but lost contact with several years ago.

anyway just the other day she sent me an e-mail out of the blue.. she wanted to know if i was "in" or "out" as she was planning a trip to australia and if i was still "in" possibly we could meet (obviously i would have to travel to oz).

she had heard i wasn't going to the meetings any more.. i replied that i was definitely not "in" any longer but that i wasn't da'd or df'd and if she wanted to read my story i provided her a link to my story on this site.

Inquiry

Hey mackin...

You know, when I left the borg... I decided it was good riddance... I knew what would happen re: shunning, gossip, arrogant behavior...actually, I found it was better watching them act out of their true emotions... hate, bitterness, ignorance and arrogance... which is real... instead of watching them pretend to love one another....I found it strangely reassuring that I was being shunned....I wasn't falling for their shit anymore, ...they can do their little self righteous bit... I don't lose any sleep over it... I don't waste my time feeling sorry for them or about them... that's a fruitless and unpleasant persuit....

When I get "shunned", and some of the looks I get and rediculous behavior of my former sisters and brothers is absolutely hilarious,... I laugh.... They do their best to try to punish me for doing something they don't like... and it makes me lol... I don't feel particularily concerned by it... it's their pathetic choice..., not mine... and I'm comforted by feeling incredibly happy that I'm not like that anymore. Reminds me how far I've come...

My advice is accept the inevitable... dub or not... assholes like this will always be around...doesn't mean you have to trip over them every time they appear....se la vie... expect it... you won't be disappointed...

Toodles

Inq

32

New to JW and looking for the right associations.

by sunflwergirl420 in

jw
friends

i have been studying to become a witness for about 1yr now and am doing what i can to become clean to be baptised.

unfortunately almost all of my friends were bad associations and i don't deal with them anymore.

i am looking for people to chat with who have the same goals in mind that i do.

Inquiry

Hi Sunflwrgirl420....

well, the good news is, you've come to the right place before you make a total commitment to the WT.... In light of the information about your drug and alcohol use and trying to kick those habits (which I think is terrific!) I think you are about to make a terrible mistake.

The bad news is, the Jehovah's Witnesses aren't going to help you stay off the drugs or alcohol. You may not want to hear it, but I think your trading one addiction for another. Right now, JWs seem to be the most wonderful people to you, loving, caring, etc... what you don't know is there is a very high price to pay for that love and caring. It will disappear almost as soon as your baptized... when this love and caring turn into expectation and demand. That's most likely what you are having trouble with, dealing with the expectations and demands in your life from various sources, including yourself. And depending on who become your "friends" in the WT, (you'll probably head straight for those that seem the most approved in the congregation) it can be a cruel and punishing experience. I know from experience. This will not help you to beat your drug problem... There are better and safer ways to deal with addictions that deal with the realities in your life rather than implanting false hopes in you and watching you struggle through them on your own (and you will eventually end up isolated in that religion).... I recommend therapy and doctor supervision to beat your addictions... these have a higher success rate and are not incumbent upon your level of indoctrination into any religion.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade here, but you are putting your head in the sand... covering over one problem with another... and I don't think you understand that you not making a choice, you are being coerced. You need some very unbiased advice and again, I recommend seeing a therapist.

I wish you success in dealing with your addictions, and with your family, I just hope your success is real and lasting. The WT can't offer you that.

Sincerely,

Inq

Edited by - Inquiry on 18 December 2002 11:12:37

14

for those who know me on Yahoo (cygnustsp)

by Cygnus in

jw
friends

due to some very unfortunate circumstances which i won't get into here, i have deleted my yahoo messenger accounts (cygnustsp and cygnuspcp).

so those of you who know me there, and wish to stay in contact, please im me at aol -- cygnus97 -- or email me at [email protected].. i have not posted in quite some time.

i would like folks who care to know that my health is pretty good.

Inquiry

Hi Cyg....

Wow... a lot has been happening with you... I didn't even know you were sick... I don't have much time to keep up with everything here, but I'm glad you got through your surgery well...

Sorry to hear about your break up... it's tough to go through, especially when your trying to fight illness too...

Stay positive bud...

(((((Cyg)))) and kisses

Inq

19

My first real SHUN

by new boy in

jw
friends

well last week i got my first real shun.

most the time it would be people i know, they would just look away or pretend i wasn't there, you know not really a person anymore.

last week it happen, this time with someone who was one of my best friends.

Inquiry

Hey Newboy....

I know shunning feels strange and it can be painful ... I try to see it as their collective "illness" and I refuse to catch it...In my area... I live in a small town, the dub yokles were/still are pretty funny.... most people in town know me and they know my story... they saw me on television... many of them applauded my efforts....after my very public disassociation, I was in a grocery store with my "worldly friend" and a dub family made quite a spectacle of themselves following me around the store... it was hilarious!!!! My friend couldn't believe it.... they followed me aisle by aisle, watching what I bought, tch, tching, and shaking their heads, they had quite a few people watching them because they really were making a scene... they looked really stupid... an older sister... one who didn't realize I had disassociated came up and talked with me... you should've seen their faces... the older sister was very nice, but she was ambushed by the dubs in the next aisle and man, did they give her shit! The poor woman... who is really a sweet person.... spent about 10 minutes trying to placate these people.. my friend and I stood in the next aisle listening... my friend.. who is not afraid to make a scene yelled out... "Oh, that's just awful... now they're going to terrorize this woman for talking with you?" They shut up awfully fast...

It's been a few years and some dubs still talk to me... they can be pretty brazen about it too, right out in public... some talk to me secretly... and their kids seem to come to me whenever they are in some kind of trouble... Whenever a dub, even the ones I was close to, tries to give me the cold shoulder, I just look at them like the jerks they are, shake my head and giggle... most people know who they are too, and they "get it"... some of them start giggling too... it's a great way to let them know that I am just fine... my life works great without them, and no, I'm not cursed by God...

Now that we're well into the "new century", you know, the one that we weren't supposed to see in this old system... I can see some of them give me questioning looks... it's like they want to talk but they're afraid... I had to be strong to knowingly act and face the consequence of losing all of my friends...and I took all that the WT handed out...they handed out quite a bit... So I figure the dubs, so good at dishing it out, should be good at eating humble pie when they figure out they've been decieved and have tortured those who have come to their senses.

Stay strong newboy... chin up and shoulders straight... you're on the right side of the issue... and even though it can be painful and downright stupid to be shunned, it's a badge of honour... wear it proudly....

take good care

Inq :)

18

When is it really over...................???

by inaweout in

jw
friends

i am a newcomer to this site, and a curious one at that.. i have been dating a guy who was / is to some degree, a jw.

although he no longer attends meetings, and does not share jw's beliefs, he is active in other ways.

for example, he is active on this site; he spends a good deal of time referencing his past life as a jw; and, he gets very angry (but not towards me) every time he hears or thinks about the jw's.

Inquiry

Hi inaweout....

Although it's a difficult experience, there is light at the end of that long, dark, JW tunnel. Yes it can be over, and yes, jws (exjws) can move on. Several people at this site are in various stages of moving on.

I know the anger your boyfriend feels first hand. I felt that way right after the disillusionment of realizing that an organization that I had placed so much trust in betrayed that precious trust. Ask Enron employees and share holders how it feels to be betrayed. I'm sure many of them would feel much the same as an exjw. Many JWs (exjws) are not especially naive, lonely or socially inadequate. They, like me, were manipulated. Everyone can be manipulated. Everyone can be victimized. IMO, it's proper to be angry with those circumstances. It's like being robbed. It's a violation. Your boyfriend is right to feel that his standards have been breached. The anger stage takes as long as it takes to get over. If your boyfriend feels stuck in his anger and feels he should be moving past it by now, there are excellent resources out there. But that's up to your boyfriend, not you.

What helped me is that I wanted to succeed, at first in spite of the WT, and then I realized that the WT just didn't mean that much ... I realized, they don't lose sleep because of what they do to people, why on earth should I expend time and energy on them. Why should I lose out on happiness and living a full, rich life because of them... The best revenge is to have a wonderful life... hey, it works for me! I made a list of some of the things I've always wanted to do and started doing them. I started to go on long walks, write, paint. Try new things. I threw out every last little bit of WT crap I had in my house, and believe me, it was everywhere... that was quite a task. Every step I took felt like a step forward, and though it took some time, I now feel healed. Not 100% mind you, The scars are there, but I'm happy, productive, and I have moved on.

It may interest you to know that I visit this site because I feel a bond and empathy for people who went through a similar experience. It's a fairly unique experience, and most people, like you, just don't have a clue about it. It's healthy and productive to share with and support others. There is nothing strange about that and hey, it's a pleasant way to fill a couple of free hours.

You intimated that people who have had this experience will never lead happy and successful lives or have the same in relationships. It seems to me that you are being somewhat naive. Your comment seems indicative more of someone who is not prepared to be involved with a person who has such deep and resounding issues. Quite frankly, you may not have the maturity and the patience to go the distance with this fellow. It's too bad that you seem to condemn the person recovering from victimization just because you can't relate to the experience. It may turn out that the experience works to smooth some of your boyfriend's rough edges, and creates a deeply empathetic, warmly affectionate and loving fella. Or not. Patience has it's rewards, but they're only for the worthy.

In conclusion, I disagree with your conclusion. I was never doomed, just duped. It's was a temporary situation, and though I paid a high price, it's only history. And some day, it will be for your boyfriend too, with or without you.

Your welcome

Inq

29

Do you have many friends?

by JH in

jw
friends

years ago, everybody seemed to talk to their neighbors, and knew just about everything about them, where they work, knew alot about them.

but now a days, we know much more people on the internet, than real live people in front of us.

we are a generation of computer addicts.

Inquiry

Hi JH....

I have many friends outside of this site... I try to balance my time, and I peruse this site only a couple of times a week. I enjoy this site and appreciate having interaction with people who have had experience similar to my own. But, I'm a social person by nature, I gotta have a life too. It's great to be able to do both. :)

Inq

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