Well, one obvious thing that comes to mind is that the "love" is used as a reward, but just enough to keep you going so they become few and far between. Of course, all that is is approval of people, that you're doing the things that they think you're supposed to do..
Introspection
JoinedPosts by Introspection
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13
Identifying mind states used by JWs
by Introspection init seems that it would be very useful to know the tricks jws use, most of us are no doubt aware of this on some level but i thought it would be nice to really get into them, maybe even look at some actual incidents that have happend to see what was going on.
what comes to mind for me is that some of the emotions involved are guilt, shame and fear, but not only that there is the whole "love bombing" thing on the other side.
i think it's worth pointing out that the bombing is basically to stroke your ego, i mean they are being nice to you because they want a new person.
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13
Identifying mind states used by JWs
by Introspection init seems that it would be very useful to know the tricks jws use, most of us are no doubt aware of this on some level but i thought it would be nice to really get into them, maybe even look at some actual incidents that have happend to see what was going on.
what comes to mind for me is that some of the emotions involved are guilt, shame and fear, but not only that there is the whole "love bombing" thing on the other side.
i think it's worth pointing out that the bombing is basically to stroke your ego, i mean they are being nice to you because they want a new person.
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Introspection
It seems that it would be very useful to know the tricks JWs use, most of us are no doubt aware of this on some level but I thought it would be nice to really get into them, maybe even look at some actual incidents that have happend to see what was going on. What comes to mind for me is that some of the emotions involved are guilt, shame and fear, but not only that there is the whole "love bombing" thing on the other side. I think it's worth pointing out that the bombing is basically to stroke your ego, I mean they are being nice to you because they want a new person. Anyways, it would also be nice to see the different strategies used (even if unconsciously) at different stages of the witness life. So, got anything to share? You can just share your experience and how you felt about it, at the time and afterwards upon reflection.
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21
Drifting Away Signs
by JH inwhat signs did you give, when you started drifting away?
were you able to tell who was slowly drifting away in you congregation just by their attitude?edited by - jh on 19 january 2003 19:18:56.
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Introspection
Maybe we can come up with a list like this for JWs:
Top Ten Signs Your Amish Teenager Is In Trouble
10. Sometimes stays in bed until after 5 a.m.
9. In his sock drawer, you find pictures of women without bonnets.
8. Shows up at barn raisings in full "KISS" makeup.
7. When you criticize him, he yells, "Thou sucketh."
6. His name is Jebediah, but he goes by "Jeb Daddy."
5. Defiantly says, "If I had a radio, I'd listen to rap."
4. You come upon his secret stash of colored socks.
3. Uses slang expression, "Talk to the hand, 'cause the beard ain't listening."
2. Was recently pulled over for driving under the influence of cottage cheese.
1. He's wearing his big black hat backwards.
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Levels of Mind Control
by Introspection ini was thinking that it seems like often when we speak of mind control, we only seem to think of something controlling our mind, but we don't seem to think of how our mind controls us.
i thought to put it in a diagram it would look something like this:.
controlling entity -----> your mind -----> you.
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Introspection
Well, actually this is where my thinking differs a bit - it's not so much about us being the controller or the chooser, but it's rather seeing that your psychological mind set, behavior and how you fit into the world are all processes, therefore you cannot say there is a you that does this or that, strictly speaking. There is only processes, and relationships, basically. The apparently stable factors like the individual is only a perspective you take depending on where you sit in the process. Awareness itself is not influenced by these processes, that's why I made the point about that at the end. This may sound like a small point, but hopefully I can clarify..
Even as I was posting that I realized it'd be more accurate to put that into a triangular diagram, (where the same bi-directional relationship exists between the you and the controlling entity) which would mean it's basically a circular relationship or non-linear in that each of the three influences and is influenced by the other two, but that's just harder to type out. As I said, the fact that we cannot control everything is not really a problem, the thing is if you understand the whole process and know what you can change, just changing those things (or even if it's just one thing) does in effect change the whole process. So where awareness comes in is knowing what your options are, because you gotta know that you have choices before you can choose any of them. These three things are really arbitrary distinctions as far as I'm concerned, it's just that it's a little easier for us to approach it this way. I mean ultimately it's just one big process of life right, so from that perspective it's just a matter of seeing this mind and body and where it stands in relation to other body-minds as a point of influence, there is not a sense of self or "me" having control. The word control is too strong for a picture this big I think, but often subtle ways of influence can be very powerful. Again, I think the power lies in our awareness of what our choices are, because then you can actually do anything that's in your power, rather than going at it through one angle trying to pry it open.
So.. If I was to try and paint a picture of what this looks like, I would say it might be a doubting dub doing things that are not forbidden but simply conscience matters. Of course, the truth is that everyone is really free to do whatever, but since they are convinced through years of conditioning that the things the society forbid them to do is just not an option, they can start by exercising their freedom or influence (participation in life) through those areas which they are aware of. Sooner or later those "pockets of awareness" may expand and make contact with apparently solid things like their witness indoctrination, and slowly over time the whole things becomes more fluid, you might say the lifeblood of awareness flows unrestricted by the arterial plaque of religious indoctrination - and the heart is open.
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Drifting Away Signs
by JH inwhat signs did you give, when you started drifting away?
were you able to tell who was slowly drifting away in you congregation just by their attitude?edited by - jh on 19 january 2003 19:18:56.
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Introspection
It all happend rather fast for me, I think I started missing meetings just a few weeks before my last one. So, I think my sign changed from "vacant" to "occupied" - like on those bathroom doors.
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Levels of Mind Control
by Introspection ini was thinking that it seems like often when we speak of mind control, we only seem to think of something controlling our mind, but we don't seem to think of how our mind controls us.
i thought to put it in a diagram it would look something like this:.
controlling entity -----> your mind -----> you.
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Introspection
I was thinking that it seems like often when we speak of mind control, we only seem to think of something controlling our mind, but we don't seem to think of how our mind controls us. I thought to put it in a diagram it would look something like this:
Controlling entity -----> Your mind -----> You
(Religion etc.) (schema) (your life/behavior)So, the second connection is often just seen as a given, and we only work on the first part between the organization and our mind. Of course, it would be insane to just cut off your mind, but I think maybe the thing that makes us feel so helpless is thinking that the "control" only comes from one direction. In reality, I think it works both ways on all levels. You only have to look at all the people who have left the JWs on this board to see that this is true. So I think a more accurate model would look something like this:
Controlling entity -----> Your mind -----> You
(Religion etc.) <----- (schema) <----- (your life/behavior)Now, I put control in quotation marks because obviously nobody as absolute control. However, if we see the whole process and where we fall into the big picture, we will have a better idea of what factors we can tweak in order to affect the dynamic of this whole thing. What this would imply, though, is that you don't cut off any connections - you can't, actually - but rather see precisely how different factors interact with each other and again see how you might indirectly affect change from where you are. Now some people might say "Okay Intro, that's about as clear as mud - what do you actually DO??" That would depend on your specific situation of course, but what I am laying out here is just a different perspective - just the perspective of overall awareness, which is no perspective really, in that things are not colored by a certain set of perception. So often people seem to want to work on one of the three things rather than the relationship between them - reforming the org, changing your mind or behavior - but really the real change happens through the action between them, because none of those things are static entities anyway. Another way of looking at it is that the only thing that does not change is awareness, what happens in awareness might change - so you might say awareness is the one place you can make your home. If you identify with anything other than awareness, (which is really no identification) you're bound to be disappointed at one point or another, because things change.
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"Clarification Of Beliefs"...REALLY?
by minimus inthe 1986-2000 wt.
index has a section under dates----clarification of beliefs.
it lists 57 points of clarification from 1872 to 2000. here's just a few examples of "new light".......1884...sheep & the goats....1923....the same....1995...the same........1925.....armageddon....1926...the same....1929.....superior authorities....1962....the same......1935.....chronology....1943...the same.....1944...the same.............in additional to obvious flip-flops, other theocratic clarification occured such as, 1947...polygamy.....1937..."other sheep" appointed to responsible positions and my all time favorite-----1992....the nethinim and sons of the servants of solomon after exile.......isn't just wonderful how the lite gets brighter and brighter?.
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Introspection
There is no such thing. The only clarification one might have is a realization that it's a belief, but other than that it's like saying "true falsehood." The key is the second word.
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advive needed
by DIAMOND ini'll try to keep this simple.
how do you tell your nine year old daughter who is your reason for living and who thinks the sun rises and sets with her daddy.
that you know longer want to go to the meetings anymore.
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Introspection
You asked the right question in that it's HOW you tell them, not what. You have two motivational forces right, fear and love. Take care that you don't just act out of fear, because even if it is a fear that you are under mind control that is still fear. The whole question of what to say is just a reflection of the JW mindset, talk is cheap. I'm sure you'd agree that as others have pointed out, what children need from their parents is love. Don't be too concerned with cutting through to the truth, because if anything kids need that support more than anyone, and also when all is said and done love is the point of it all isn't it? Kids atleast aren't as corrupted as adults when it comes to this, they'll be able to tell that it's genuine. Just don't get too caught up in the information, because that's all its good for. It has a place of course, but you're concerned about your relationship with your child - information you can get from a book, but we don't have relationships with facts.
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OBSERVATIONS BY MY THERAPIST
by Far North inmy last therapy session was all about the "truth".
after many sessions i finally brought up the thought that maybe some of my depression and low self-esteem issues have to do with spending 40 years in a high-control religion.. i won't bore you with all the details but some of the highlights of what i said bothers me are:.
my never feeling like i am doing enough or are good enough.. having regrets about missed opportunities and having let others control my life.. constant changing of doctrine and dates.
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Introspection
I have sacrificed and obeyed (usually). What went wrong?
THAT's what went wrong! The obeying part is probably obvious, but sacrifice is a bit more subtle. We usually think of self sacrifice as a virtue, but not if what you are sacrificing amounts to selling your soul, and I'm afraid that about sums up the JW experience, as is the case with many religions.
Self sacrifice is really a pretty simple thing actually, it means you have no more sense of self. If you have no more sense of self, there is no more desire to save the self, because what are you going to save?? This is true selflessness, not that psychologically programmed nonsense which inflicts its own agenda upon others because you become so arrogant as to think your religion has all the answers. Now, I don't mention this to sell it in any sense, but it's useful to see it clearly for what it is. In my book there is nothing wrong at all with someone who hasn't attained this kind of selflessness or even if you don't want to, heck most people are in that boat. You see, even if you have the noble intention to be like that, that is only a projection of the mind. The desire to become this selfless saint is just one more thing to hold on to, but that is just more bondage to the mind. This kind of selflessness simply comes out of not holding on anymore, because to have a sense of self you have to hold on to something. This is where the joy and peace of mind comes from, because then you are free.
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What's Your Sign?
by minimus inas witnesses, we were admonished to never look at horoscopes because they are demonic.
many jw's that i knew of would not even look at a fortune cookie because they could be "demonized".
i read my gemini everyday.
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Introspection
"Yield" and "Slow Children Playing".
Oh, in terms of horoscope.. I guess I'm on the cusp of Cancer and Leo.