Posts by Introspection

37

If you were wrong about the truth, what else?

by ballistic in

jw
friends

what effect has having a whole section of your life proved to be a falsehood had on you?.

anybody that has been a witness will understand the time, effort, comitment and money that it took to be a member.

the way it dominated our lives, affected every decision we made and shaped our future.. some have left and turned to other faiths and some (like myself) have lost all religious faith (and i make no appology for that).

Introspection

Hi Waiting,

On H20 about 2 yrs ago, there was a brilliant speech by a member of British Parliment (I think). In it, he said that any person who joins ANY organization should realize that it's a short term committment to that original organization - the average life of the original ideals would be approximately 5 years.
Why? Because during that time, the organization has to evolve to stay alive. What organizational ideals you had to begin with will have changed - and you must be prepared to change or leave.

Good point here, although I would point out that this is probably more applicable to heirarchical organizations. There are organizations where there is a general consensus regarding the ideals they hold, (not only at the outset either) and sometimes it's kind of a matter of the details not being important. Of course, these are usually relatively small. Then again, if you recognize that the ideals you hold are most important, (one of them could be this open attitude that you've described) then the survival of the organization wouldn't be such a big deal, but only in so far as it supports those ideals.

11

Being truly free

by Introspection in

some of the messages on the board have prompted me to think about this a bit, seeing as how it appears to be a theme that resurfaces every so often.

actually, one of the reasons i'm posting a separate thread is that the other ones which brings this up is usually about something more specific and has gotten really long, and to be perfectly frank i don't have the time to read through it, but i think the issue is an important one.. we can be free from the wts physically, but a certain pattern of thinking sticks with us a bit longer as i'm sure many of us are well aware.

naturally, when you're out you're going to go out into the world and explore, doing this and that, the "normal" people stuff you might say.

Introspection

Some of the messages on the board have prompted me to think about this a bit, seeing as how it appears to be a theme that resurfaces every so often. Actually, one of the reasons I'm posting a separate thread is that the other ones which brings this up is usually about something more specific and has gotten really long, and to be perfectly frank I don't have the time to read through it, but I think the issue is an important one.

We can be free from the WTS physically, but a certain pattern of thinking sticks with us a bit longer as I'm sure many of us are well aware. Naturally, when you're out you're going to go out into the world and explore, doing this and that, the "normal" people stuff you might say. But is that really being free? It seems to me the main difference between the witness existence and the typical conditioned existence of people in the world outside is that having left the society, we are conscious of that behavior, (conditioned existence in general) but people who've never had such an experience aren't. This, I think, is something very valuable that not everybody has, and we should not forget it.

In some ways, I don't think 'normal' people in the world are so much better off, or that they're even truly normal, although this condition may be common, but that's not the same thing. In a nutshell, I have to say that really being free means a kind of mental freedom. Of course, this is where people usually say their experience has been too big, they were in too long, indoctrinated when they were young, and it will always be with them. Well, from the perspective of conditioning this is probably true, but then again that's not what I'm talking about here, because that's not really being free. What I'm saying is that you can be free from conditioned behavior altogether. If you're reading this with any amount of interest then it is possible for you, if you can suspend judgement (which I might point out is likely due to conditioning ) for a moment to see if there is something to what I have to say then that itself shows you can do it! All it requires is that you let go of this belief that you're always going to be like "this", whereas change is probably the one constant in life. In fact, that's really very vague isn't it? We say we can get over it to some extent, but that some of it will always be with us. Well, exactly how much and which pieces? Being free from it doesn't mean you forget what happend, it just means it has no control over you anymore. You know, if it really is so strong that you can not uproot it for the rest of your life, then you don't have to worry about it. But if it is possible for you to be free from it all, doesn't telling yourself that you can't work against that? Don't let it become a self fulfilling prophecy when you can break through it. If it doesn't change, it doesn't change. Why spend any energy thinking it?

Well, as Forrest Gump says "that's all I gotta say about that." It's late and I really didn't have anything worked up, but I only hoped to provide a feel of what I'm talking about. If it did I'd appreciate some comments.

37

If you were wrong about the truth, what else?

by ballistic in

jw
friends

what effect has having a whole section of your life proved to be a falsehood had on you?.

anybody that has been a witness will understand the time, effort, comitment and money that it took to be a member.

the way it dominated our lives, affected every decision we made and shaped our future.. some have left and turned to other faiths and some (like myself) have lost all religious faith (and i make no appology for that).

Introspection

I haven't read through every message in this thread, but did scan it and if any of this is a repeat I will atleast make it brief and direct.

Several have mentioned trust issues. I think this is very significant, because your own motives in trying to figure out what is true is atleast colored by this defense mechanism. That's fine to have, except you might actually shield yourself from finding the truth just as you did with witness doctrines, the only difference is that you discount rather than affirm a position in any given issue.

Instead of asking if you were wrong about this or that, I think the big question is 'Is my thinking wrong?' If you never look at your own mind how can you trust it to come to any accurate conclusions? Yet otherwise intelligent people are often very subjective in their analysis of what's true, it is rather like a powerful computer running a sophisticated program that hasn't been debugged.

To me being careful in the defensive sense serves no useful purpose in terms of determining what is true and, even in terms of mental health. If you want to see things clearly for what they are, you need to drop your assumptions, including the assumption that there is a good chance it's going to hurt you or that people are out to deceive you. Of course, for this to be useful in any sense you have to maintain the attitude, to continue to question instead of using it for a brief time and then settling into the belief that 'I know what's true now'. As we know, the reason some people deceive others is simply ignorance, and in that case there is no conscious intent to deceive, they basically don't know any better. But what it comes down to is that even if you identify the error in everyone else's thinking, if you never look at your own then you're no better off than if you are completely ignorant. I maintain that the most truthful and honest position is one of 'I don't know.' The typical skeptical attitude seems to be focused on the source of the information rather than the one that has to interpret it, namely yourself. Even if you have acquired a lot of knowledge and is a pretty smart guy, ultimately that information is only relative, and should be treated as such. Atleast some people who believe in completely objective knowledge say that you have to start here, too. After all, if you start anywhere else aren't you just really hiding behind an assumption, a nice idea, a belief that makes you feel better?

23

IF YOU HAVE EVER MADE AN IMPACT ON A JW

by In_between_days in

something i would really appreciate feedback for.... if any of you have ever made and impact on a jw what was it?

what was the one sentance, or one seed of doubt that made their brains start ticking?

were you sucessful?

Introspection

Morrisamb, your comments reminded me of one thing, and that is from my perspective I do not see any support I would have to offer as a providing a kind of belonging, rather I would say that I support them as individuals finding their way. This is not a contradiction with the idea of being an "independent thinker" as the witnesses might have it. The fact is you are an individual who chose to become a witness or whatever other religion, it isn't about being rebellious but rather using your natural mental faculties to make wise choices. I would also say that in facing the unknown I would like to see anyone embarking on a life outside of the witness world change fear or insecurity into a kind of curiousity and love for life. Not only is this a more honest attitude toward life but also a more interesting one.

So, while I haven't gone out of my way to make any kind of "point", I believe I have some kind of impact, even though the results may not be seen and it may be in a very subtle and general way. Who knows, maybe some day I'll find out something was said (or not said) at the right time for a certain witness I talked to, or maybe it'll never happen. Meanwhile, life goes on.

23

IF YOU HAVE EVER MADE AN IMPACT ON A JW

by In_between_days in

something i would really appreciate feedback for.... if any of you have ever made and impact on a jw what was it?

what was the one sentance, or one seed of doubt that made their brains start ticking?

were you sucessful?

Introspection

I'm with Morrisamb here. I don't try to throw a wrench in the works, you just don't know what might happen. In my position as a technically inactive publisher, doing something like that may send enough of a ripple so that they do actually start shunning me, so that I won't be able to talk to anyone else anymore. Besides that, people do have a tendancy to project some kind of hidden agenda or ulterior motive, making up some story about you being unhappy and wanting them to be unhappy, even if the opposite is the case. The mere mention of anything that doesn't agree with them, even if you only express it as your own thoughts, will bring up judgements in most people's minds, and certainly more so with JWs. There are plenty of issues you can bring up, but I guess I'm just trying to deal with them as people too.

In Between, I think what you experienced with the U.N. issue was in fact a lack of desire for the truth. For anyone who wants to find out what the truth is, they have to first inquire. Someone who believes that they already know will tend to be closed minded, yet we see even the bible says it is noble minded to keep looking.

Since most people are used to looking at things with a dualistic view, it may be helpful to see how having these two sides can help an individual leaving their witness identity behind. I think it's all fine and good to have people who show you the way out, but then people usually need support after they leave. I don't think shredding JW's is support, which is also not a statement of judgement against those who do, I'm simply looking at it from the perspective of how the newly out person will get along in the world. One thing I think about is how the person can be free from even the identity of being an ex-JW. That's just another side of the same coin as far as I'm concerned. That's why when the witnesses do talk to me I just talk to them like a friend, they never seem to want to explicitly bring up anything, so I figure they're not ready for it. But at the point where they do decide to leave and they do know that I've been gone, I would think that friendliness will be remembered, along with comments about happy I seem and so on. So I see myself on this end of it, offering a kind of support. To be honest with you, I didn't know if this will work in practice, but I saw a glimpse of this at a recent ex-JW potluck, so now I'm thinking it is possible. In fact, the ones I talked to weren't even newly out, so I think this is something that is quite useful for ex-JW's in general.

Now of course this kind of begs the question, what exactly do I have to offer them? Well for a serious lack of better words, it would be something "positive" as opposed to "negative." (that being the negation of the truth of JW teachings and such) Of course, it would only be one way, and the things that have "worked" for me are simply there for them as ideas. I don't think most people are ready for a completely or even primarily negative way. Even though you might have a cleaner slate, it's just kind of heavy on that end whereas it could be more balanced, and it probably helps to see it in another "ex-JW." Of course, anyone can do that, and nothing prevents a person from working on both ends of the process. However, I just think it's worth pointing out that you have to have something "positive" to offer if you're going to do that. Someone who does not have it, and perhaps is even in need of it themselves are simply not in a position to offer anything on that end.

151

Intro's quote-o-rama

by Introspection in

i guess i've been inspired by stephen's quote threads, so i'm going to start one myself.. not one particular author here, just whatever i can find:.

q: why do you think that people are so protective of their egos?

why is it so hard to let go of one's ego?.

Introspection

Many people are addicted to, and identified with, being the separate and unique victims of the tragic dramas of their lives. People so often form the deepest bonds with one another by sharing the painful and tragic episodes of their lives, as if those episodes define who they really are. Many people really see themselves as "the one who has struggled," and "the one who is struggling now." Others struggle to hold onto a more positive, fixed identity as a good, successful, or spiritual person. However, most people cling to both negative and positive self images, creating an endless struggle between contradictory identities that have no fundamental reality to begin with. Is it any wonder that so many spiritual seekers remain so confused?

-Adyashanti

1

St. John's wort poor remedy for depression, study

by Quotes in

i fear i will get flamed for posting this, but remember: i'm just the messenger!.

http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20020410/600106.html.

st. john's wort poor remedy for depression, study finds.

Introspection

There's some specific information here, this atleast provides the basis for some meaningful discussion.

It's interesting that even among those who used SJW for depression, it was never indicated for severe depression. (which, of course still leaves the category of moderate depression) I also remember talking to one very knowledgeable herbalist who said he didn't understand what the big deal was, or how it was used for depression, so even someone who did not practice with the scientific method shared this view.

It's certainly helpful to have well designed studies, but I've heard many people who've tried SJW say that it does nothing for them. This may be (and is probably) true, indicating that people who are willing to try herbal remedies do not necessarily delude themselves, (which I would think is self evident) but then again there's always the question of dosage and stardardization with herbal products. You can interpret it either way.

The popularity of herbal remedies has boomed in North America in recent years, proof that the number of people who eschew conventional medical treatments and believe natural products are healthier is on the rise.

Now I'm not sure if this is "proof" of anything other than the fact that people want to try other things. Yes some people will go after the "natural" label without even really understand what that really means, but obviously there are many choices out there, even when it comes to supplements or herbal supplements in particular. I think the key word there is popular, and despite the common tendancy for people to polarize this against that, conventional against non-conventional, (whatever that is) there are people who make truly informed choices rather than what's hot these days.

*edited for typo, replaced "healthy" with "natural"

9

A Little Depressed? This may be a GOOD thing!

by patio34 in

hi all, just ran across this in this morning's news:.

study: depressed women live longer .

by william l. holmes .

Introspection

Oh yeah, I should note too that if you have the attitude of acceptance often it wouldn't qualify as depression anyway, one might just call it the blues. But also if you don't have this schizo attitude like you HAVE to be so happy all the time, you might just find that you are less depressed because of that. Because other than life span, there is also the matter of quality of life.

9

A Little Depressed? This may be a GOOD thing!

by patio34 in

hi all, just ran across this in this morning's news:.

study: depressed women live longer .

by william l. holmes .

Introspection

I think this is good news because it takes the pressure off people to be happy, cheery, optimistic all the time.

This is a good point, who says you have to be freakishly happy all the time anyways? But by the same token, it does no good if you identify with depression as if that's all that you are. If you are depressed, then the truthful thing to do is to fully accept that you are depressed, not to go into denial and put on a smile even though you don't feel like it. Rather than allow ourselves to experience whatever life experience we may happen to have, we cling to these ideas of what we're supposed to be like, how we're supposed to feel. It seems to me it's quite clear that THIS is what causes mental illness, rather than any natural feeling we may happen to experience in response to things. Those feelings are just what people go through in life.

"I am Jack's broken heart." -Fight Club

"I don't think you're happy enough. That's right!
I'll teach you to be happy
I'll teach your grandmother to suck eggs!" -Ren & Stimpy, the Happy Happy, Joy Joy song

23

Feng Shui

by Lost Diamond in

jw
friends

have any of you ever looked into feng shui?

if so, what is your feeling on it?

Introspection

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that post, although I think the concept of "balance" may be misleading for some. One can easily think of it as where something lies in relation to two poles on a linear continuum, (like your basic number line in math) whereas the taiji symbol from Taoism illustrates it in a circular model, with a seed of the opposite contained in each.

It is also dynamic, in that one thing changes into the other all the time. Rather than this image of balance on either side of a scale that is used to illustrate the idea of justice, it is not a static idea where the opposites are always opposites. This is where the idea of "energy" comes into it. Most people seem to think of it as some kind of "stuff" that flows around, whereas the basic idea is that there's change and movement, that's all. There are some repetitive (and sometimes very basic) patterns which you can observe, though that's where people get caught up. This is where I find the Buddhist idea of impermanence useful, because despite grand proclamations by some who fancy themselves as logical and scientific, there is inevitably a tendancy to cling to existing "knowledge" despite some new data. (which only has to be new to you) Well I don't want to go off on something which should be another thread, but it does appear that it's all about some kind of certainty, some knowledge you can count on for security. Instead of going with the changes in life, most people want to hang on to something static, and frankly that is just something without life as far as I'm concerned.

Mark