the watchtower society dates noah's flood to 2370 b.c.e.
they do this by following bible chronology quite closely, counting backwards from 607 b.c.e., their date for babylon's destruction of jerusalem.
however, as we know, the society's date for that event is in error.
IW,
You wrote: We will always disagree on Paul and other things recorded in the Bible.Maybe not. For, as you said, "God will at his appointed time grant us the blessing of having his spirit in full measure." And as Paul said, "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now we know in part; then we shall know fully." (1 Cor. 13:12)
AMEN!!
abaddon,.
i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?
like, yeah.
Borgfree you said:
"There is NO innocent culture in human history. All nations and peoples have waged war on other people and have taken land, property, slaves, etc. from the defeated peoples."
"I still think it is the greatest country to ever exist"
I agree with both those statements.
Most countries have minorities and citizens that disagree with their policies, in the majority as well as the minority. And most countries have suffered the pains of a neglectful past. The United States is not unique in these respects.
The right and ability to publicly disagree is what has contributed to America's greatness. You have a right to loudly say what you think, and I do not believe you are by any means alone in your opinions! Others also by right of this great Government have a right to say what they think.
Your feelings have been shaped by your experiences, but others have had different experiences and these different experiences have shaped THEIR feelings.
To say that the U.S. has and still does wrong is not an attack, it is the right of political expression.
Every Presidential election since that of John Adams has produced opposing views and vehement political disagreements. The Founding Fathers themselves made terrible charges against one another.
The Government was not an entity in itself, it was men working out their differences, from the beginning there was compromise. The Constitution was not the result of genius alone, it was the result of genius and men willing to compromise. Men who were willing to lose a little and gain a little rather than ditch the whole Revolutionary effort. They found a way to balance the rights of the smaller states verses the rights of the larger states, an effort that still continues today among the minority views verses the majority views in various political and social issues.
The United States Government was and is a work in progress. It must change as the world around it changes. Compromise and disagreement is all we have, and in a Democracy we should treasure it.
Again, I do apologize to you for any offense in the use of the term WASP.
IW
the watchtower society dates noah's flood to 2370 b.c.e.
they do this by following bible chronology quite closely, counting backwards from 607 b.c.e., their date for babylon's destruction of jerusalem.
however, as we know, the society's date for that event is in error.
"With that in mind, I have a question for you. If the Bible is not the word of God, aren't people like me nearly as dangerous as YK? People who, by means of a moderate tone and reasonable sounding words, might actually succeed in persuading some people here to "waste their lives" following a "nonexistent God."
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aChriatian,
I disagree with you. I think that people like you are MORE dangerous than YK!!
You have a good reasoning ability, you do not carry the Watchtower baggage, you are not an overbearing fundy. Yes, I think you are very dangerous.
BTW, I agree with your post on Julie's thread. Man was not created with the ability to live forever. I feel though that the Tree of Life has more to do with God's Spirit than Jesus. In Ezekiel when the stream coming out from the temple reaches its greatest depth it produces life. I feel that it will be the same with us. God will at his appointed time grant us the blessing of having his spirit in full measure, eternal life resulting.
We will always disagree on Paul and other things recorded in the Bible but I do respect your sincerity and demeanor. No matter how "dangerous" you are!
abaddon,.
i was going to answer your post in the thread where you posted but thought it better to not continue the discussion on that thread which was for a diferrent topic.. you say: quote: "yeah, all those wasp's working on railroads, and in restauraunts, and in poorly-paid factory jobs whilst the blacks, irish, polish, scandanavian, other non-anglo protestants, roman catholics and the latino's sat around in highly paid jobs benefitting from the sweat of the wasp's.... ... oh, no, sorry, it was the wasp's tending to sit around in highly paid jobs, whilst the roman catholics, blacks, irish, polish, scandanvians, other non-anglo protestants, and the latinos did the hard poorly paid jobs.... the wasp's built america?
like, yeah.
Borgfree,
It was my post to Clash that first offended you:
"Clash,
The Bible has for centuries been used by fundamentalists to lend Godly support for the persecution of the Jews, the continued enslavement of Blacks in the Southern USA, and the putting down of women.
It of course comes as no surprise that here in America all of these efforts also serve to keep the male WASPs in control!
Which is really the point isn't it!!"
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This was written within the context of: fundamentalists who use the Bible to further their own personal agendas and who have aligned themselves with the prevailing powers of America. It was not meant as an insult but if you felt it was then I sincerely apologize! I do not hate WASPs, I married one!
I do feel though that the credit for the building of America cannot be SOLELY laid at the feet of the first white Americans.
The U.S. Constitution, while certainly a brilliant work one which has benefited countless of people, was not invented in a vacuum. The great formers of the Constitution had their sensibilities and intellects trained by those who came before them, men such as John Locke who in 1690 in his Treatises On Government set forth many of the principles found in the Constitution such as: natural rights, property rights, the duty of government to protect these rights and the rule of the majority.
George Washington was a slave owner, as was Thomas Jefferson. It was their black slaves that put food in their mouth, it was the black slaves that literally put a roof over their heads. The State of Virginia was the "mother" state to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and James Monroe, four of the first five Presidents of our country. "Mother's" economy was heavily slave dependent, take away the slaves and what you have is a group of land rich men who are dirt poor!
Ironically, Colonial America found it necessary to throw off the yoke of their mother country, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants! No one race or nationality is above another, IMO though they all have had to fight the same enemy; oppressive religion. In fact several of the Founding Fathers would not fit the Fundamentalist definition of Christian, for they did not all have faith in the inerrancy of the Bible or respect for the organized religion of their day.
If the Anglo-Saxon feels his race should be given credit for the role it played in the forming of this country, this is fine because it is true. But it is also true that he did not and could not have done it alone and that many suffered greatly along the way including Blacks and the American Indians.
The Blacks were forced to work the land taken from the American Indian. It was this work and this land that helped to make America rich. The Anglo-Saxon also worked and he also designed a fine system of government.
Infant "America" was the child of ALL these peoples.
IW
i found this great anadotal piece from my friends doug wilson and doug jones at cradenda agenda http://www.credenda.org/.
so here it is.. ministers in skirts.
by douglas wilson.
Clash,
My point was that many people are aware that religious fundamentalists have thwarted the advancement of social issues regarding Jews, Blacks, and women. It is taught in schools, Clash. Surely you must be aware of this.
IW
is it possible that when we see posters get upset, and then leave, that they feel devalued by the group?.
when we leave the witnesses, are we not devalued as apostates by those who remain witnesses, some of whom are lifelong friends?.
could it be when we find a place like this, we discover again that we are valued, so that anything threatening that sense of belonging hurts too much as a reminder of our exit from the witnesses?.
Hi "Julie",
To the contrary, I knew you were not gone!!!
Glad to see you are feeling your old self again!!!
Why are you using Julie's name? Come on be woman enough to ask Simon to restore your persona!
IW
i found this great anadotal piece from my friends doug wilson and doug jones at cradenda agenda http://www.credenda.org/.
so here it is.. ministers in skirts.
by douglas wilson.
Clash,
As a reference I could have used my 14 year old son's history book but I figured you didn't need me to!!!
IW
is it possible that when we see posters get upset, and then leave, that they feel devalued by the group?.
when we leave the witnesses, are we not devalued as apostates by those who remain witnesses, some of whom are lifelong friends?.
could it be when we find a place like this, we discover again that we are valued, so that anything threatening that sense of belonging hurts too much as a reminder of our exit from the witnesses?.
Magog,
There are many valued people, in fact everyone here is valued. Among those who have left are some who have also hurt others, they threw trash on people they did not even know, people who were new.
It may seem hard on my part, but man if they can't take it they should not have dished it out!
We all hurt!!! Who has posted in sympathy for the newbie who was trashed so bad that they stopped posting! Who remembers them!
Tina has trashed people online. People who have been hurt by the Tower just as she has, people who have personal problems and hurdles to overcome just as she has.
That's been the problem, some here think they are the only ones who have suffered. Farkel has suffered, damn it so have the rest of US!
We all lost something, we are all angry about something, we all have things pent up inside waiting to come out, we all need to shout out our feelings.
Devaluation is not the problem, plain old humility may be what's missing!!
IW
i found this great anadotal piece from my friends doug wilson and doug jones at cradenda agenda http://www.credenda.org/.
so here it is.. ministers in skirts.
by douglas wilson.
Clash,
The Bible has for centuries been used by fundamentalists to lend Godly support for the persecution of the Jews, the continued enslavement of Blacks in the Southern USA, and the putting down of women.
It of course comes as no surprise that here in America all of these efforts also serve to keep the male WASPs in control!
Which is really the point isn't it!!
IW
a friend of mine has been sharing her doubts about the organization with me for the last year.
she read both of ray franz's books and found that they were interesting and dealt with many of the questions she had.
she then wrote to the society anonymously and explained why she could not in good conscience preach regarding 1914 ( she used my p.o.
Outlaw,
Ray Franz does not owe anyone anything!
IW
