Hi,
I appreciate you still wanting to converse on the new 'side' topic that we seem to have started from your original 607 thread.
So, continuing on, you stated
Please note that all the men are imperfect. (Rom. 5:12)
God knows that. Since the Churchs are composed by men...
all the Churches are imperfect. Even the Churchs of God.
But,once again, God knows that his Church is composed by
imperfect men. So, or you accept the imperfection inside
Church of God, or you will not believe that God has a Church.
But do not confound the imperfections with voluntary sins.
I have a couple of questions for this one:
1.) If god knows that all churches are run by imperfect men, why would god pick just one group of imperfect men above all others and state "These imperfect men are going to be my mouthpiece" whereas all the other imperfect men are tools of Satan?
2.) Is it possible that the 'church' Jehovah was talking about is not a physical entity, but rather the person? So instead of having a congregation of church goers that all belong to a single denomination (JW's, Catholics, Protestants etc) anyone who professes and believes in Christ Jesus and what he did for us belongs to a world-wide brotherhood of Christian? If, as the bible says, you should have a personal relationship with God through Jesus, why do we even need a man-made imperfect church in the middle of that relationship?
3.) Are you stating that the Roman Catholic Church, or any other church except the JW's are committing voluntary sin? How so? How do you know that it is just the imperfections of the men that misinterpreted what the bible states?
YOU WROTE;
This very statement would scare the bejeebers out of me, since
you have just admitted that you KNOW it is wrong, and yet you
(as with all people) will give a personal account to Jehovah
on his day.. You cannot 'hide' under the organization with this
statement.. You are not blindly following an error, you know an
error (or at least you feel conscieniously an error is being
made) and yet YOU CHOOSE TO FOLLOW THE ERROR...
ME:
This is your statement, not mine! I never said that i will
follow the errors.
I wrote:
<<You can even find something correct in some apostate's book,
as i did. But the correct thing to do is to discuss it directly
with governing body (as I did) and if the information is correct
they will confirm it (as per my cases).>>
I wrote also:
<<You will never be disfellowshipped to have read
a book, but you could in the moment you WILL TEACH something
you have read in that book.>>
I wrote:
<<If I will not agree
with new statements of WT, i will let them know my position
and i will confirm them my loyalty>>
No, you never stated that you will follow the errors. What you did state was that you would continue to be loyal. Loyalty implies that you will follow, and following someone you believe to have errored is forgoeing your conscience and is the same as committing the error itself?
I'll give you an example: Let's say that new light comes out from the GB (doctrine x).. You disagree with doctrine x, and even contact the GB about it.. They say, that is the correct interpretation, sorry you do not agree with us, but doctrine x stands.
Now, to be 'pleasing to god' you are taught to go in field service.. So, you go out in field service, and you meet someone who asks about doctrine x. You now have a choice, you can be loyal to the organization, and teach them doctrine x all the while believing it to be in error, or you can tell them that you do not believe in doctrine x in which case you would become an apostate, right? So, out of loyalty to the organization, you now teach or at least support a doctrine that you do not believe in. To me, that is going against your conscience, and when the day of judgement comes, and you have to personally account to Jehovah, what will you tell him?
I can understand your point of view.
Do you remember king Saul?
Note that i do not want to compare GB with Saul, it's just
an EXAMPLE.
He represented the human organization of God, in the past.
You know that he made a lot of mistakes.
He also tried to kill David. So could you please explain me
1 SAMUEL 26:11 ?
Was David loyal to the Visible Organization or was he loyal
to Jehovah?
11 But the Lord forbid that I should lay a hand on the Lord 's anointed. Now get the spear and water jug that are near his head, and let's go."
Huh? How have you proven to me that the GB is indeed to lord's annointed? That is your claim, not mine..
How come you apply that to the GB, but not to any other church (Cathlolic, Protestant, etc)? What is the difference; all of these you mentioned are mere mortal imperfect men, doing the best that they can to try to 'reason' from the scriptures, right? After all, does the GB have any direct revelation from Jehovah, or just a self-made claim (via imperfect men) that they indeed are God's mouthpiece? If the claim has no divine inspiration (which needs to be proven) then that claim is simply being made by imperfect men, whom we all know could make mistakes, and as well-intentioned as they may be, could have made a mistake about that claim as well.
But by following the claim that they are indeed God's mouthpiece without ANY evidence that they are receiving divine inspiration, you are now required to shun anyone that is not loyal to them, required to teach what they tell you as truth, even if you do not believe it yourself, and keep seperate from the 'world'. Explain to me how you are not:
1.) Shunning ex-members
2.) teaching stuff that you may not believe in (going against your conscience)
3.) stayed seperate from the 'world'
All of the above is based on a man made claim that they are god's mouthpiece. Without any divine evidence you are now Judging everything from these imperfect human's eye and claims. What if they are wrong, and they are NOT the lord's annointed ones? What do you think Jehovah will do when that judgement day comes, and you tell him that you followed these men, and he asks you why you followed imperfect men, went against your personal conscience, shunned your loved ones, and stayed seperate from the world, and rejecting people I sent to you because you thought they were of the world, when in-fact they were from me?
Are you willing to place yourself in such a position because a group of imperfect men claim to be god's mouthpiece? Without any divine proof of such claim, aren't you just following the dictates of men, knowing full well that they have made signifigant errors in the past, are probably making signfigant errors in the present, and via their own admission, will continue to make signifigant errors in the future, as new light is continually received to 'correct' them?
Please show me divine proof that the claim they make of being god's mouthpieice (the lord's annointed) is accurate. Otherwise, it is just their word, and they could be wrong, as we all know they are imperfect men.
Edited by - ItsJustlittleoldme on 18 June 2002 10:35:2
