Posts by dgp

35

Intellects do not believe in God

by garyneal in

on our trip back home from the thanksgiving holiday spent at our home town my wife labeled me an intellect.

normally, i would've been flattered with the title but when she called me that she was referencing the bible verse matthew 11:25. this offended me to say the least.. she said that it was hard for people like me to have faith in something because i will always investigate it and make sure of it.

for example, if someone told me that the grass was green, she said i would not believe them and research grass and the color green to ensure that it really was.. i told her that this was absurd and that i see no reason to research whether or not the grass was green when i can see with my own eyes what color it is.

dgp

My two cents.

Gary, that was no red herring your wife threw at you. She was clever. First, she put you on the defensive, by implying that you would irrationally refuse to believe the most evident things even if they were right before your eyes. Next she spoke about the Watchtower's blood policy. She conceded "defeat" in the first issue only to "win" in the second. She wanted you to think you were irrational because you won't accept the bloody blood policy.

She also tried to convince you NOT to do your research and be credulous.

I would suggest that you see these kind of comments by your wife as an opportunity to learn. She is providing you with more and more insight into what she thinks. Use that to reflect on your own beliefs.

I am deeply convinced that you can't have true faith unless you also use your intellect. Blind faith is not the mark of the true believer, but the mark of the submissive, the one who wants everthing spelled out. The one who is willing to give up his independence in exchange for "safety".

I think most people who follow a religion do so because they were born in it. In this, I am including the Jehova's witnesses. Parents impose their beliefs on children under the assumption that it is a good thing. Children believe what they are told to believe. Someone who never questions the faith he or she received this way has never really had faith, but has limited himself to going with the crowd.

To have faith, you need to take the proverbial "leap". That means that, at some point, intellect alone won't be enough. Many religious people act out of bad faith when they question someone who can't take that leap. If someone can't believe as they do, it's not that they refuse to believe. It's that they don't believe, simply. What you believe shouldn't be under your control. If I can control my mind and make believe that I believe that something that looks green is red, only because my organization says so, what kind of a faith is that, really? If true belief isn't something you control, but something you just feel, why should they hold it against you?

And then, the more you do research into the evil that religious fanaticism has brought into this world, the more you feel like not being religious. The Watchtower is a good example of that. So many people hurting and dying in vain. If the Governing Body really thought that evil ones will be killed at Armageddon, would they do what they do?

I can call it faith after you have done all of your research and independent thinking, yet you decide that something they tell you is true, even though no tangible proof of it exists. If you can believe that the hick son of a carpenter who hung out with prostitutes and lowlives, had twelve bums with him all the time, did not follow the law and was crucified did indeed rise from the grave, then you have faith.

If your faith is true, it will withstand any analysis of it.

Keep going, Gary.

17

What would happen to a JW woman if she did this?

by dgp in

jw
friends

if you were a jw woman, and you exposed your elder husband as a cheater, what would happen to you?

would the congregation take it against you?

what would happen to your standing in the congregation?

dgp

Thanks to all for taking the time to post an answer. I very much appreciate this.

From what I can see, many things may have happened. From disfellowshipping the guy, and his moving to attend a different congregation, to "all right, have your scriptural divorce, but we know you were not a good wife". It is not possible to know for sure. But she might be feeling the pressure, yes.

I have another thought on this, on a broader sense. In a case like this, it would only be good if everyone in the congregation just minded their own business. Divorce shouldn't be the whole congregation's business. Staying unhappily married should never be the price to pay for "congregation love".

17

What would happen to a JW woman if she did this?

by dgp in

jw
friends

if you were a jw woman, and you exposed your elder husband as a cheater, what would happen to you?

would the congregation take it against you?

what would happen to your standing in the congregation?

dgp

I very much thank you all for taking the time to respond. Here's some additional information.

The wife apparently got a scriptural divorce. At least they are not living together anymore, and he moved to a different congregation.

The other woman was in the same congregation.

I know for a fact that the man was in contact with at least one ministerial servant. Does this mean he was not disfellowshipped, only asked to change congregation?

The daughter of this couple did meet with the man recently.

I believe both of the people involved in the couple had a very good standing in the congregation. Knowing the person, I doubt she would have spread any gossip. But I am sure people in the congregation knew about the cheating. You know how the wife is always the last person to know.

She's moving to another congregation, too.

I ask the question because I want to know the person's possible standing in the congregation. I know this is a lot of speculation.

I recently checked the Panorama series and found that a wife who accused her elder husband of molesting their daughters was told to be a "good wife", shut up, and pray. In the end, even though the man had indeed abused the daugthers, AND THE ELDERS KNEW, the congregation stood before the man. The woman and the girls had to leave the home, and "lost everything in one day". It got me thinking.

Thank you very much, once again.

17

What would happen to a JW woman if she did this?

by dgp in

jw
friends

if you were a jw woman, and you exposed your elder husband as a cheater, what would happen to you?

would the congregation take it against you?

what would happen to your standing in the congregation?

dgp

If you were a JW woman, and you exposed your elder husband as a cheater, what would happen to you? Would the congregation take it against you? What would happen to your standing in the congregation? How would the rest of the congregation see you? These questions can seem stupid for you guys, but you need to remember I was never in.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

49

Ray Franz Views of "Information Control" by WT Society Agree with Hassan

by flipper in

jw
friends

having read ray franz's " crisis of conscience " 3 years ago -before i read steve hassan's 2 books on mind control - my wife and i thought it would be good to re-read ray's " crisis " book again now that we know more about the workings of " cult mind control".

we just finished chapter 2 and i noticed striking similarities i thought i would share.. notice this quote in " crisis of conscience " on pg.

28 & 29 by franz , " thus numerous factors that are relatively common knowledge in many religious organizations are known only vaguely , if at all, by the vast majority of jehovah's witnesses.

dgp

HappyGuy, I know what you mean. I think Mr. Franz could defend himself very well. I will give you, however, my point of view about him.

Yes, he was a willing member of an organization that practices mind control. He rose to the top of it, and I am sure that happened because he faithfully and perhaps fanatically observed what the organization demanded. Yet, when he was at the top, he had two options: either to stay where he was, or to tell people about what he had come to understand. He chose to tell. Not many people in his position would have done that. Look at any other similarly oppressive organization and you'll see that dissent comes at a price.

Mr. Franz's books have a wealth of information to prove the Watchtower wrong. Whether he does it to clear his conscience or not, the fact is, he has prevented more than one person from joining the organization (myself included). I am sure that his books have also led many witnesses to leave the organization. So, while I can't know why he is doing what he does, he is doing what in the end is a good thing.

The man is not perfect, yes. Sometimes he sounds too soft on the Watchtower. However, he's doing good to people now. He changed.

I have learned a lot about my own religion by looking at what he says about his. While making an apology of the Watchtower is an unthinkable thing for me, I do recognize that he did teach me a thing or two.

29

What does an MS do?

by deemoo in

right... so i've hung around on jwn for a while now, but i simply can't figure out where an ministerial servant stands in the hierarchy scheme of the wts.. there's the r&f or rank & file.. then there seems to be the microphone handlers, sound checkers, donation bin watchers, index card for territory managers, person who is in charge of the books, etc.. then there are elders.

circuit overseers.

bethelites.

dgp

Deemoo, I can't say more than this as I've never been in: Ministerial Servants are invariably male. Women are considered second-class citizens in the organization.

4

AIDS Cure Goes Unnoticed

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.baldwincountynow.com/articles/2009/05/28/local_news/doc4a1d63cb68531598814432.txt.

i heard about the scientific basis of this previously.

it is believed that many north europeans carry a mutation they got from their ancestors who survived the black death/bubonic plague - that also makes resistant to hiv infection.

dgp

I heard some people in other regions are naturally immune, too. If my memory is correct, they found out that a small group of Ugandan prostitutes had been in the business for a long time and had never had used any protection, yet none of them (in that small group) had acquired the disease. The article suggests that bone marrow transplantation could help people with AIDS. I hope so.

For the benefit of everyone, I hope this is true. And, for the sake of the occasional witness, I hope the GB does not rule that this operation is not allowed.

19

My brief "Bible Study" with the Jehovah's Witnesses

by garyneal in

my wife called and told me she was going to a book study but my daughter did not want to go.

could i come pick her up my wife asked me.

sure, i went over as soon as i could.. when i got there, they were discussing encouragement and building others up.

dgp

Gary, I know that sometimes it's difficult to tell whether people do the things they do because they are real bad, but hating the sin, not the sinner, is usually a good thing to do. I know that I am not walking on your shoes and it's easy for me to tell.

And yes, you're right: you need to protect yourself and your daughter. You have raised a point I hadn't thought about: a witness might choose to follow the "blood policy" even with a non-believer. Scary.

17

Does anyone have PDFs for the Watchtowers of January and February 2010?

by dgp in

jw
friends

anybody has them?.

dgp

Ninja, I appreciate your humor . My reason for asking for these PDFs is that, elsewhere in the internet, I read that apparently the WTBTS will ask the faithful to be baptized again. The supposed reason is that baptisms before 1985 did not include the pledge of allegiance to the WTBTS, so they want to get that loose end tied. If that information is already out, then I supposed you guys would have those PDFs. I wanted to verify the information. As I have said before, I am a worldly person and I don't have access to those things unless I invite a witness into my home. The witness I was interested in has cut all contact with me, so I can't ask that person for anything.

From the perspective of a worldly person, the fact that such PDF's are out speaks volumes. It means that someone at a high position is decidedly cooperating with "the Apostates". Like I said elsewhere in this forum, I am sure the elder who tried to supervise me would be shocked at knowing that the worldly man he found stupid has a copy of Keep Yourself in God's Love and the Pay Attention to Yourself and whatever.

I'm not interested in studying the Watchtower :-). I am interested in learning more about how the organization controls people. I was amazed at the "suggestions" on how a witness is supposed to use their time. One-sixth of the time for work! How can you adequately support yourself with less than two days of "secular work" a week?

Fokyc, thank you!

I also realize that sometimes I say things in ways that merit a "suggestion". Guys, I was never in and sometimes don't know if I'm stepping on anybody's toes. Sorry.

17

Does anyone have PDFs for the Watchtowers of January and February 2010?

by dgp in

jw
friends

anybody has them?.

dgp

Well, I am correcting myself. I am not sure if anyone has the Watchtowers for January and February 2010. If anyone has them, would that person please share them with me? I would certainly appreciate it.

Sorry if I came across as rude.