Posts by sd-7

131

Let's Discuss Ray Franz's Books

by Recovery in

i have been repeatedly pleaded with to read the books of ray franz in my short stay on this board.

apparently these are all the all-powerful, wt crushing arguments, that lead so many to leave jw's and become ruthless opposers of god's people.

we can discuss any claims/statements/scriptural arguments presented in either of his books, as long as it somehow proves jehovah's witnesses are not god's people.

sd-7

If you want to insult me, show me where I am wrong scripturally.

Deut. 18:21, 22: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him."

May 15, 1984 Watchtower, pages 6-7:

"But fulfillment of all the foretold events affecting the generation of 1914 does not depend on comparatively slow human action. Jehovah’s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: “This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.” (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son’s words in a relatively short time. —Isaiah 46:9, 10; 55:10, 11"

Did it happen as it was spoken, in the name of Jehovah? Did it occur? No. Then it was not from God. The people who wrote it received no information from God, as is demonstrated by the fact that IT DID NOT HAPPEN. Scripturally speaking, this proves in one example that the "food" given by the publishers of this magazine was not "food at the proper time", as it was false information presented as if from God.

I'm not sure what level of proof you require, but it definitely talks like a duck here. At a certain point, it becomes clear that no amount of proof can convince you of anything. Which brings us back again to the question. Why are you here? If you do not believe what has been repeatedly explained, and you don't respect the "faithful slave" class enough to obey its direction regarding communication with apostates, you are basically in a spiritually isolated condition yourself, not loyal enough to the organization you are defending to simply go your own way and flee from 'bad association', and not interested in the opposite side of the spectrum either.

Bottom line, make up your mind about what you want. You're really only wasting your own time here, if this is all you're going to do. Most of the regular posters here are going to post stuff anyway. Either way, take care of yourself, and keep learning. I don't say that to be pedantic; I say that as a man who believes in freedom of thought and appreciates the value of learning as much as we can about ourselves and others. Keep reading, and keep learning.

--sd-7

131

Let's Discuss Ray Franz's Books

by Recovery in

i have been repeatedly pleaded with to read the books of ray franz in my short stay on this board.

apparently these are all the all-powerful, wt crushing arguments, that lead so many to leave jw's and become ruthless opposers of god's people.

we can discuss any claims/statements/scriptural arguments presented in either of his books, as long as it somehow proves jehovah's witnesses are not god's people.

sd-7

Well, I do think it makes little sense to discuss a book that you've never read. The fact that you changed your mind about walking away from the JWs is an indication that you have more to learn. I would say reading Ray Franz' books was a huge change for me, but that's not where any person of good common sense would stop--that's where their research would begin, if anything. I certainly didn't agree with everything he wrote, and would readily acknowledge that much of what he said was anecdotal--his personal experiences on the Governing Body, which comprise much of what is written in his books, though not all. That's stuff that I personally cannot prove happened, so as shocking as some of it was, it alone isn't/wasn't enough to convince me to have serious doubts about the Witnesses.

I guess Crisis of Conscience starts with the late Mr. Franz retelling his life story as one of Jehovah's Witnesses up until the time he began to serve on the Governing Body. (It actually reads a lot like many life stories still found in issues of The Watchtower today. He had a full life of service.) He goes on to discuss various concepts relating to the authority structure of the organization, the excess in rules where the Bible isn't necessarily clear, and inconsistencies to be found in Watchtower literature, including predictions that did not come to pass, teachings that were in error and how they were handled, and how individuals in the organization were impacted by the ever-changing policies made by the Governing Body. He uses direct quotes from Watchtower literature and his works seems very well-researched and thought out to me. He speaks as someone who personally wrote many Watchtower articles and a book or two himself, so I think his record commands a certain respect whether you agree or not. When it comes to being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, he was as at-the-top-of-the-game as they get. It's a long book, but someone ought to give you a copy, and if not I can, if no one else has yet.

I think one of the biggest things that helped me clear up how I felt about the organization was just reading the Bible itself. Verses considered in their context, rather than scattered through an article in The Watchtower, seemed so much clearer without any outside explanation potentially saying they mean something else that they may or may not mean. There is a reason why the Society says that you cannot understand the Bible without its literature--because the Society wants you to see only what they tell you to see, whether it is there or not.

But I want to be clear, even so: it's not my job or personal wish that you "wake up" and leave the Witnesses. If you read Ray Franz' stuff, do your own research on top of that, and are convinced nonetheless that Jehovah's Witnesses are the true religion, then fine. If that's what you believe, you have the right to that, and nobody should try and take it from you. I found that logical reasons to question the entire concept/system/organization/whatever weren't as important to me as emotional reasons to stay--the feeling of security and belief, in varying degrees of accuracy, that all was well inside this organization. That may not be the case with you, of course, you may feel that there are perfectly logical reasons to stay, and again, that's your choice.

Whatever the case, you are free to make your own decisions on this. And for the record, you would most certainly find yourself in trouble with the elders for reading Ray Franz' books. But only if they knew about it. Either that, or your elders would also be kind of questionable too. The way they swooped down on me, you'd think I was holding a protest sign outside the Kingdom Hall or something. I would be as skeptical as you are if I hadn't experienced it with my own two eyes. This was far more than human imperfection showing, this was a witch trial.

If you're serious about this, though, I think this could be a valuable opportunity, not to make fun or attack you personally, but to have an open forum for these issues for the whole world to see. But it's very telling that you want to talk about these books at all. If you think you have the truth, then why? There's no reason to go down this road if you want to be a Witness. If you are absolutely sure that's what you want, then you should never return to this site, for your own...good, shall we say? Because nothing here can help you be sure about remaining a Witness.

Well, I hope I've not been offensive or done ad hominem kind of stuff. Just my two cents, is all.

--sd-7

31

Field Service Requirements

by DATA-DOG in

has there ever been any official letters stating the amount of field service required to be considered exemplary?

usually the number given is 10hrs, but if you look up " 10 hours " in the cd-library you get 14 hits.

none from the bible of course, and only 3-5 are related to field service.

sd-7

To my knowledge, there was pretty much an unwritten rule that you should keep the national average for hours per month. If you wanted to 'make progress' you should make 5-10 hours more than that if male, and pioneer if female, 'cause that's as far as women can go...

I'm sure there's something in writing, but maybe from the Rutherford era, at most. Otherwise, I don't know.

--sd-7

284

ABOUT TERRY

by Quentin in

jw
friends

terry was admitted to the hospital yesterday.

he has a severe case of cellulites which has affected his neck glands.

his face and neck are very swollen.

sd-7

I knew I sensed a disturbance in the Force. Now I know why! Glad to hear you are alright, Terry. We'd have to go all 'Futurama' on your brain if anything happened to you. And I don't have an empty 'Terry' jar sitting around right now, so that'd be a real problem.

Grow, live, be strong!!!!

--sd-7

207

Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Recovery in

let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

sd-7

Wow, long discussion. I would simply turn this on its ear. Maybe the person who claims the Society's understanding is correct is the one who has the burden of proof, but is placing the burden on everyone else to disprove it, when it remains unproven and unprovable, as all the most important stuff, ie. the Master appointing the slave (or slave class, let's assume) in 1919 was invisible. (Even if it could be proven that Jesus originally appointed the apostles as a 'faithful slave', which would be subjective to believing this is a class of people with specific authority rather than a parable, there's still that matter of nearly 2,000 years passing where one would need to figure out how that chain of command--or head chef of spiritual cafeteria or what have you--passed on during that time and ended up in the hands of a young haberdasher who was influenced by a group with several false prophecies of its own, and a judge who made a very nice living off of the books he, uh, received donations for and made a false prediction or three himself, either in the name of God or in the name of man, I forget which.) Given the very long record of error just posted here, I think it's abundantly obvious that the burden of proof is on Recovery, to prove that his understanding is correct. But really, to even engage in this debate if he believes the Society to be correct is quite simultaneously a rejection of the 'faithful slave' and its Governing Body, which lovingly tells God's clean people to have no dealings with "apostates" and not to engage them on the Internet.

"It sounds like bait to establish a connection trace."

it sounds like bait

--sd-7

28

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 09-02-2012 WT Study (TRUE FREEDOM)

by blondie in

jw
friends

true freedom.

law that belongs to.

what is true freedom?

sd-7

And here is the hugely unscriptural teaching being restated once more:

"Thereafter, Christ’s

144,000 fellow kings and priests will

continue to liberate mankind by progressively

applying the benefits of the

ransom sacrifice until Adamic sin and

imperfection have been fully erased.

(Rev. 5:9, 10)"

Where in the Bible does it ever say that anyone but Jesus can give us the benefits of the ransom? Certainly not at Revelation 5:9, 10. Hebrews 9:24-28 says Jesus offered his blood up once for all time, not once for the anointed, who can then take it and dole it out at a rate of 1/1000th per year to everyone else. There is no scriptural support whatsoever for this teaching, and not once in the numerous times I've seen it has there ever been a supporting scripture that actually proves it. They usually don't bother citing a scripture next to it.

The other problem this creates is that it nullifies Revelation 7:9-14, which says the great crowd washes its robes and makes them white in the blood of the Lamb and serves day and night in the temple. Now apparently, those robes require a 1,000-year cycle in the big Ransom Washing Machine, a Subsidiary of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc. Hope you brought a lot of quarters! But seriously, if they're still not wearing white robes until 1,000 years later, then this group simply does not exist, as no such individuals emerge from the great tribulation wearing white robes. And thus, the anointed have no one to rule over for a thousand years. Well, except those not in the non-existent great crowd that get resurrected....but let's not even go there...

I'm not sure most JWs even realize what is being said here, but how ironic that disagreeing with this would be apostasy. Saying that only Jesus, Jesus alone, can apply the value of the ransom to our sins...is apostasy. A rejection of...true Christianity.

Ooooooooooooooookay.

--sd-7

28

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 09-02-2012 WT Study (TRUE FREEDOM)

by blondie in

jw
friends

true freedom.

law that belongs to.

what is true freedom?

sd-7

"A new Bible student named Jay was addicted to tobacco."

So let me guess: is "Jay" related to "Andre", by any chance? An uncle, perhaps?

"The reality, however, is quite the opposite. Mountains of rules and regulations are necessary to curb their hurtful appetites and behavior. “Law is promulgated, not for a righteous man, but for persons lawless and unruly,” says Paul."

So, Watchtower reader, what do you think this says about how the Governing Body feels about you? Don't worry, you don't have to think of an answer--they gave you one in the same paragraph:

"In a way, such individuals are like insects that

crawl right into a bowl of honey. Driven

by their appetite, they soon find themselves

entrapped."

Hey, they said it. Not me. But remember, you don't need so many rules like this lawless world. So...what's with the beard, forgot to shave? And you can't do a part from the platform with a sportcoat and slacks! What are you, a Bible study??

--sd-7

19

How would YOU explain a Jehovah's Witness FEAR of Disfellowshipping to a reporter ?

by Balaamsass in

today i got contacted by a reporter.

he was incredulous that a parent would contact elders and not report a child rape to the police immediately.

i tried to put on my jw hat and explain the jw mindset to him..but it was like explaining color to a blind man.

sd-7

I would say, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses, a true believer, I mean--and I speak as a born-in, so I know what I'm talking about--that fear of disfellowshipping is equivalent to the fear of death. It would be like dying to the world, like being a walking corpse. You'd feel like you were just waiting for something horrible to happen to you (car accident, struck by lightning, STDs/HIV, drug and alcohol addiction, losing your job, and so on), there's this fear that the world is literally going to eat you alive if you get expelled from the religion. You have no idea whatsoever what life will be like on the outside, it is an utterly foreign concept. It's the spiritual equivalent for a JW of...covering you in blood and tossing you into a shark tank.

That's how I would describe it. Genuine, serious fear.

--sd-7

20

Can You See GB Saying This: 'Maybe We Were Wrong'

by Joe Grundy in

i just saw this news story.. i never was a jw (or a catholic) but i liked this story:.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19451439.

can you imagine a gb member ever saying in effect - 'we were wrong'?.

sd-7

15. Some have reasoned that because we have had to make minor adjustments in our understanding of God's Word, that perhaps holy spirit is not directing Jehovah's organization. This reasoning is dangerous. It can lead to questioning and even outright rebelling against Jehovah and his organizational arrangement. How tragic it would be if we allowed ourselves to "perish in the rebellious talk of Korah"!

15. (a) What have some reasoned, and why do you think it is foolish for some to reason this way? (b) What will happen to us if we question Jehovah's organization?

[not real, satire, it's been awhile, this paragraph was too short!]

--sd-7

104

Service meeting topic: Masturbation

by perfect1 in

one of my strangest memories of going to the kh was when a young- maybe 18-20, pimply young man got up to talk about jhvhs view of masturbation during a service meeting.. of course, it was impossible to think about him not masturbating.

i was just hitting puberty and found the whole thing very uncomfortable- i think my dad was even critiquing him (what is that called when elder gives the feedback).

looking back now i can see that to publicly condemn masturbation, especially when a young man is delivering this admonition, is- well- hilarious.

sd-7

But defeating this habit was my white whale throughout my teenage years. No pun intended. It destroyed my self-esteem, that struggle. I just feel sorry for the kids that are facing this same crap today. All for what? Tragic.

--sd-7