can you prove the following watchtower teachings using nothing other than the bible?.
1. jehovah has an earthly organization today and that the governing body is being directed by jehovah.
2. only the remnant have the heavenly hope.
Thank you for that peacedog. I was looking for that verse that spoke of the great crowd being specifically in heaven.
Of course, the witnesses reason that the great crowd in Rev 7:9 are still on earth and that earth is like Jehovah's courtyard or something.
Anyway...
can you prove the following watchtower teachings using nothing other than the bible?.
1. jehovah has an earthly organization today and that the governing body is being directed by jehovah.
2. only the remnant have the heavenly hope.
My wife told me one time that I would make a better Jehovah's Witness than she would. It is somewhat of a scary thought that I seem to know their theology better than she does and quite frankly I wish I did not know any of it. But I guess in the end it is good as it helps me to see if there are indeed errors in it and it forces me to look for the truth in a fundamental sense.
Perhaps the most difficult belief for a witness to prove besides 1914 is the teaching that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. I recall asking my wife to show me where in the Bible does it teach Jesus as Michael and she could not show any definitive proof from the text. I even let her use her material so that she can get the Bible verses referenced. None of it could provide convincing proof.
JW's like to rail against Trinitarians because they say that the Bible does not really show that Jesus is God in form and substance. Yet the Bible would show more proof text concerning the diety of Jesus Christ than it does Him being Michael the Archangel. Only the WT Bible minimizes the verses proving Christ's deity and the WT publications make the 'leap of faith' to indicate He is Michael.
The thought of Jesus being Jehovah was pointed out to me on an evangelical christian website. I pointed out the verses that show that a) no one has seen God and lived and, b) no one has seen God at anytime, except the begotton Son. Following this with the reasoning that if no one has seen God expect the Son, who were the old testament saints conversing with? On her own, my wife came up with Jesus. Of course, she backpeddled on it (or so it seems) when it became clear that this contradicts her doctrine.
| One must be called of God, anointed and ordained and commissioned by Christ. |
Ah, but according to the April 1st, 2006 WT, a baptize publisher is an "ordained minister who bears Jehovah's name."
summer of 1992 - all is well, graduated from high school as the salutatorian.
one would think i had college dreams, but alas i did not.
i was planning to take my data information processing certificate and get a part-time job while i pioneered!
That's exactly what I have in mind for my zealous JW daughter. When the meltdown comes - as surely it will - I'll be there to help her gel. |
I think my wife is 'in love' with the whole thing because she sees her mom being a very successful pioneer TM and her dad even has the title of ministerial servant TM . Of course her mom hasn't worked and has been on disability for 20 or so years and her dad, well, he seems a little 'weaker' in the faith because he tends to put his 'worldly job' (and since being laid off, his current 'worldly education') ahead of attending all of the meetings. After all, he turned down the position for elder.
My wife's congo seems a little more liberal than what I am seeing coming from the experiences shown here. The elder who she has been having her studies with actually has a college degree in pharmacy. Granted, he got it before he became a witness. Also, one of the ministerial servants TM in the congo has a 'worldly wife.'
But then again, there may be more than what they are showing us since I am still the 'worldly spouse' and she is still an unbaptized publisher TM .
summer of 1992 - all is well, graduated from high school as the salutatorian.
one would think i had college dreams, but alas i did not.
i was planning to take my data information processing certificate and get a part-time job while i pioneered!
God Bless You Tiffany.
It saddens me to read stories like this and makes me realize why I cannot become a witness myself. Even if my wife remains in the 'truth' and even if they seem to have a lot of things 'figured out.' I feel like I need to protect my daughter from this and provide 'a way out' by being there for my wife if she encounters any of the B.S. within the congos.
i really want to believe it, but, sometimes it is very difficult to figure out how it can be from god.
i mean, in the old testament, he seems horrible in some instances.
the adam and eve thing doesn't make to much sense to me.
Hello all,
I've been reading this thread with great interest. I've also watch the videos posted on here entitled "Who Wrote the Bible?" and bookmarked the you tube page for further watching. I, like the man in the documentary, was also taught at a young age to believe that the Bible is wholly inspired by God and 100% accurate. I must admit, like the man in the video, there are times when I have had some doubts. While I still believe in the Bible, and especially in Christ Jesus, I have to wonder why it seems like there are some passages that became null and void within Christian living by the first century C.E.. What about some of the passages that are becoming 'null and void' today (such as ordaining women pastors, etc.). It would seem that the only timeless teachings are the teachings of Christ Himself.
I remember in college a Philosophy professor telling us that the creation account of Adam and Eve were a myth. He also told us that a lot of the traditions in Christendom today came primarily from the roman emporer Augustus (which by the way is also a JW teaching). I remember in art class, I was reading about a painting that dated back from around 10,000 B.C.E.. When you consider that Adam was created around 4,000 B.C.E. you have a little conundrum and the best way I was able to reconcile this is the possibility that Adam wasn't created in around 4,000 B.C.E. but was instead around much much earlier in time.
It seems like the more I try to get at the truth, the more I find myself having more questions than answers. I used to ask myself, "What if modern man wrote the Bible?" By that I mean the human race having the intellegence and technological advancement that we have today. How will the Bible be written if the events of it were filtered by the prism of the kind of scientific knowledge that we have today? What would the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah look like from the perspective of modern man? Would it be God pouring out his wrath, or would it be simply meteorites raining down on that city? What about the great flood? Worldwide, or only covering the fertile cresent (as has been suggested)?
In the end, though, it would still make more sense for me to believe rather than not believe. I guess, in the end, I find myself quoting another poster who said this, "It is better for me to have questions I cannot answer, rather than answers I cannot question."
hey everyone, i posted a video form of a comment debate on my channel.
the jw was really arrogant and i figured i should bring it to everyone's attention that he did horrible in the debate lol.
it's crudely animated, it's funny due to a chipmunk voice, but people have said they can learn from the technique i used in disarming every one of the usual jw techniques for "winning" biblical debates.
Disagree with the Watchtower, disagree with the Bible. Yeah, I've had those discussions with my arguments labeled as Gary-isms.
Keep those Tuesday-isms coming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyakn5ediju&feature=email.
Hmmm, to each his/her own I suppose. I do have a question to ask though for all of the witnesses. If you all rail against Christians who wear crosses around their necks because you insist that Jesus is alive and should not be displaying His symbol of death, why show a child a picture of Him on that torture stake?
can you prove the following watchtower teachings using nothing other than the bible?.
1. jehovah has an earthly organization today and that the governing body is being directed by jehovah.
2. only the remnant have the heavenly hope.
I'll take a crack at it...
| 1. Jehovah has an earthly organization today and that the Governing Body is being directed by Jehovah |
What, you never heard of 'God's visible organization' in the book of Numbers? (Um, I think that is right.) What about the disciples? They were God 'annointed class.' Who was with Jesus when he offered his body as the bread and his blood as the wine? Oh, wait a minute, so how do I connect that with the GB? Dag on it, let me find my reasoning book on that, the faithful slave is never wrong.
| 2. Only the remnant have the heavenly hope |
The great crowd is not 'in' heaven in the book of Revelations. Ha, no WT article, just the Bible. Um, wait a minute, where did I learn the 'truth' to begin with?
| 3. The “faithful and discrete slave” is a proper arrangement and is a class made up of anointed ones and their Governing Body to direct the affairs of Jehovah’s people. Matthew 24:45 is more than just an illustration |
Because Jesus is the greater Moses and Moses was the mediator between God and man in the old testament and now Jesus is the mediator. He mediates between God and the 144,000 and the 144,000 mediate for us. Hmmm, now how did I connect these two things without WT help?
| 4. There are two classes today – the heavenly class and those of the earthly class also called “other sheep” in John 10:16 |
Because the heavenly class is the 'little flock' who began with the disciples. Only they partake of the bread and wine. Hmmm, again, how did I never know this before being taught this from the WT?
| 5. The number 144.000 mentioned at Revelation 7:4 and 14:1 is literal, not symbolic |
Because they make up the little flock Jesus spoke of.
| 6. That we are living in the last days, which started in 1914 7. That Jesus was enthroned in 1914 |
I combined these. Remember the prophecy in Isaiah about the seven gentile times. In Revelations, 3 1/2 times is 1260 days so seven times is 2520 days. Now substitute a day for a year and you have 2520 years. Add that to 607 B.C.E. and you have 1914 C.E.. Remember, Jesus, alias Michael, casted Satan out of Heaven in the last days. That was when WWI started and things have been getting worse since.
Hmmm, how come I never knew this before hearing about it from the witnesses?
| 8. That Abraham, David and other faithful men of old (prior to Jesus earthly existence) will have an earthly life, not heavenly. |
Because the existed before the new convenant established by Jesus.
9. Given that the WTS says that blood "components" are unacceptable for true Christians while blood "fractions" are a matter of conscience, can you give me the Biblical definitions of, and difference between, "components" and "fractions"? |
Because fractions no longer sustain life as mentioned in the bible where the life of the animal is in the blood.
The interesting thing is, none of this stuff is taught in any Christian church. I don't even think the Christadelphians teach this stuff.
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I must agree with Saoirse in that you're following yourself rather than God. I did it too and I can certainly tell you that it is not the right thing to do.
I know it is not easy to accept but put yourself in his shoes and imagine him following the same guideline. He, a professed JW has no business dating you. That sounds harsh, I know, but that is how they think. Look at it in another way, if you truly want him to be happy do you think he will be happier married to a non-witness or to a witness?
I look at my situation with my wife and I can see how happy she is when she is at the elder's house doing a book study and in the hall (when my daughter and I aren't making a ruckus). It is her sanctuary but unfortunately, it is not mine. Nice people there yes, but a part of me always feels that something is not right.
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Let us put it simply like this, sometimes you are better off alone than with someone who is not right for you.
I love my wife and I think, aside from the religion, she and I are very compatible. However, she is a born in and she has the JW mentality ingrained in her head. She will not look at her religion objectively because her mind is closed. She thinks that if she entertains the thought that 1914 is wrong, then she must entertain the thought that her entire religion is wrong because 1914 is its achilles heal. Simply put, she will not entertain that thought.
Now in regards to your child, I too have a child from another relationship that my wife became a step-mom to. Her attitude towards this child (my son) six years ago was dreadful and the conflict that she and I had over her jealousy ultimately led her to being carted off to jail. To their credit, the JW's in our life supported me in my dilema and told me that the religion never fosters the kind of negative reactions my wife showed during these tumultuous years. I have no reason to believe that they would be lying or covering anything up in this regards so I believe they are telling the truth. Never-the-less her reactions made an already bad situation worse because my son's mom did not really want me involved in his life to start with.
This man may be nice to you now but people change. My wife and I started out as friends, we became lovers, then married. All the while, I never suspected that she would have a problem with my son. Boy was I wrong and boy did I regret marrying her at the time. We did pull through but it was in part due to the counseling we received and my son's mother moving out of the area with her husband (whose a MORMON can you believe that!!!) and my son. Our marraige has suffered damage due to this. One time in the middle of this her own mother suggested I call 911 and have her committed (she takes paxil by the way). Apparently her parents did this to her sister and all I can say is, WOW. However, her sister did experience rape so I cannot blame her ills totally on the religion either.
Now, like I said, I feel that this incident has little to do with the religion because even people in her religion were supporting me in this delima. However, I cannot help but to wonder if the religion did not play some part. Back then, she kept saying that 'God does not bless out of wedlock kids and they are not a blessing.' This in spite of the elder and his wife and my wife's mom telling her different. Perhaps her jealousy twisted the teachings.
Anyway, I'm only saying this because you have a child too and that adds a new dynamic in your relationship. Single parents must tread carefully when selecting a mate. If things are not going well with him now, they will not get better if you marry him and may get a whole lot worse.
