Posts by xelder

6

Elders Wives

by xelder in

i am sure that we individually are responsible for decisions and actions we take.

we reap what we sow, and ultimately must face the personal responsibility.

however, other factors do contribute.. i am a 5th generation jw, and my wife is a 4th generation jw.

xelder

I am sure that we individually are responsible for decisions and actions we take. We reap what we sow, and ultimately must face the personal responsibility. However, other factors do contribute.

I am a 5th generation JW, and my wife is a 4th generation JW. We grew up together in the 1970's in the same rural area congregation where both of our fathers were elders. My father was very strict and emotionally abusive. It has taken me years to even be able to admit that. In his partial defense, his childhood was difficult. His method of correction was to strip your self-esteem to the bone. This is the type of man that can be a JW elder. Where is Holy Spirit involved in the appointment?

We married at 18 years of age. I know that we loved each other, but we both changed and grew as we matured. I was an angry young man and was at times emotionally cruel to my wife. We have stayed together because my wife is the finest person I have ever known. She is loving, longsuffering, very moral, kind and a wonderful mother. I was always doing "more important" things. I was a very good provider but, I was always after self-esteem and got at the Kingdom Hall. I was a MS, aux-pioneer, elder, circuit assembly, district stuff, temp bethel worker, blah, blah, blah. To have father figures (men twice my age) applauding my accomplishments was a real esteem booster. Like my father, how could I possibly be qualified by holy spirit to be an elder and give families counsel. I look back (like the apostle Paul) and consider it all a lot of refuse.

My wife was also the first to realize that the WTS was selling crap. She and I have been progressively waking up for about 15 years. We read Ray's books 18 months ago and it was extremely emotional on many levels. Sadness, relief, sympathy, anger, over so many areas of our lives and what could have been.

I am amazed at what elders wives put up with. The WTS always talks out of both sides of their mouth saying, "thank your wives that you are here at this special meeting away from your families." "We know your families sacrifice so that you brothers can serve" "Be sure and take care of your families needs". Then they tell you to get busy with a huge list of organizational stuff to do, and your worth as a person and an elder hangs on their opinion of you. It is like Corban. Jesus denounced the practice of setting material things aside for a holy purpose while not caring for aging parents. Elders give family time as Corban instead of where it is most needed.

I used to wish my wife was "more WTS spiritual". She felt inadequate for many years because she was not all that the WTS or I wanted from her. (In other marriages, many wives complain about their husbands not being spiritual heads). I now realize that she is the reason for all the good things in our lives. My WTS efforts were all a waste. I was a selfish person and will spend the rest of my life spending every day spoiling my dear wife. (she's really fit and pretty too - haha)

I want men and women to know that their mates can eventually get it. The WTS definition of how their spiritual routine is the most important thing in a marriage is extremely damaging.

14

"Old School" Elders

by xelder in

in the last few years that i served as an elder, and as i was discovering what the wts really was, the term "old school" would be used and it began to bother me more and more.

it was usually used to praise a person with a mean, unwaivering, dogmatism to an obselete policy.

a couple of times i would ask the person what he meant by the term.

xelder

In the last few years that I served as an elder, and as I was discovering what the WTS really was, the term "Old School" would be used and it began to bother me more and more. It was usually used to praise a person with a mean, unwaivering, dogmatism to an obselete policy. A couple of times I would ask the person what he meant by the term. The discussion was similiar to this

Me: What do you mean by "Old School"

Other Elder: Well, it's a strict adherance to WTS policy. Things were better in those days, back in the days of Rutherford, Knorr

Me: Is "Old School" a scriptural term?

Other Elder: Well no. but it produces a better product

Me: I think I maybe know what you mean. I know of someone who I think was of the "Old School", and do you know what he used to say?

Other Elder: No what

Me: He said "My yoke is kindly and my load is light" And I'm pretty sure that that school is older than your "Old School"

4

"Vindicate God's Sovereignty"-JFR vs "Let your name be sanctified (or Hallowed)" -Jesus

by xelder in

sorry if i missed it, but has there been a scriptural discussion of this?

i know of jfr's need for vindication when he came up with the idea.

any other biblical research on the difference between vindication and sanctified (hallowed) thanks.

xelder

Sorry if I missed it, but has there been a scriptural discussion of this? I know of JFR's need for vindication when he came up with the idea. Any other biblical research on the difference between Vindication and Sanctified (Hallowed) thanks

6

Millenium views? - Pre or Post

by xelder in

i've read both of ray franz's books (excellent) and both of carl o. jonsson's (also excellent) after dismantling the wt doctrine of 607 and last days, carl o. jonsson comments on the establishment of christ's kingdom in the year 33. i assume (i think i'm right) that he is supporting a postmillenialist or amillenialist view, as apposed to premillenialism.

can anyone point me to a good source of information and discussion on these various views?

do any of you favor one over another?

xelder

I've read both of Ray Franz's books (excellent) and both of Carl O. Jonsson's (also excellent) After dismantling the WT doctrine of 607 and last days, Carl O. Jonsson comments on the establishment of Christ's kingdom in the year 33. I assume (I think I'm right) that he is supporting a Postmillenialist or Amillenialist view, as apposed to Premillenialism. Can anyone point me to a good source of information and discussion on these various views? Do any of you favor one over another? (Assuming you still beleive the Bible of course) Thanks in advance.

4

Peace and Security - Berlin Wall Fell - 20 years and counting

by xelder in

when east berlin opened, we heard lots stories of desperate people seeking jw's in west berlin.

how is germanys growth now?

how many from 20 years ago are still in?

xelder

When East Berlin opened, we heard lots stories of desperate people seeking JW's in West Berlin. How is Germanys growth now? How many from 20 years ago are still in? Japan and Mexico were also held up as examples to shame the US lazy publishers. I once heard Lyman Swingle (GB) at a convention say that the US needed more war and distress so that the publishers would pay attention to the preaching work, like the fine publishers in other countries who don't have it as well.

Every time the news mentions the word 'Peace', JW's go nuts with joy. If the news says 'Peace and Security' in the same paragraph, every "foxhole" JW starts attending meetings again.

Now, obviously, I'm no scholar. But let me explain what I read in 1 Thessalonians. Paul had just escaped the Jews in Thessolonica and wrote this letter from Corinth. He sent Timothy back up north to deliver it. When Paul says. 'it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who cause tribulation to you and THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW GOD', the Christians would assume that he's talking about Jews from their city. When he talks about 'the day of the lord', I say he's talking about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. (JW's say it applies today to Armageddon and all (even those who don't know God) will be destroyed. I also think that the comments later in the letter on 'Peace and Security', apply exactly to the situation in Jerusalem between 66 and 70. Romans pulled back, then a brief peace and security, then they came back and destroyed the place. Who says it should be applied 2000 years later. I know Freddy did

7

CO handovers

by cantleave in

jw
friends

i have just been reading the thread about co do get togethers and it led me to think of a question that i have had for years.. every three years the co rotate and a circuite will get a new guy to hound the elders.

my question is, what level of handover info does the new incumbent get from the leaving co?

i now they get the congregation reports but is their any exchange of personal information regarding elders personalities / weaknesses, are potential trouble makers identified etc.?

xelder

Had to run to the mail - I'm back now

Actually, quite a few brothers turn down parts, and the CO gets exasperated because its just more work for him. Lots of times, thats why you see the same speakers every assembly. Not everyone is willing.

The worst is the Saturday afternoon symposium of a 2 day assembly. That part is under special attention for the DO to tweak locally as he sees fit. Therefore, he wants the same speakers at the A,B,C parts of the circuit so there are less rehearsals. So the parts (which usually have interviews, skits, and other participants) require preperation, rehearse to CO, rehearse to DO, and 3 weekends to give the parts. So there goes 2 months of any extra time you had. I quit giving those.

The baptism talk is the favorite to give for most elders. No participants, therefore usually no rehearsals, 30 minutes to be marvelous.

7

CO handovers

by cantleave in

jw
friends

i have just been reading the thread about co do get togethers and it led me to think of a question that i have had for years.. every three years the co rotate and a circuite will get a new guy to hound the elders.

my question is, what level of handover info does the new incumbent get from the leaving co?

i now they get the congregation reports but is their any exchange of personal information regarding elders personalities / weaknesses, are potential trouble makers identified etc.?

xelder

Ahh, I see. Its all about the Label, they want to know what you are. It's OK if your cancer is terminal-they lable that excuse as OK. If your family needs you for a bit, that is usually accepted too. THEY WANT TO KNOW THE EXCUSE - then they lable you and are comfortable (unless the lable is weak, or apostate)

Fortunately, my family has always been fairly low profile socially. I was very busy, but kept personal issues to our family. Some are much more social and this can become a hinderance with a fade.

Vague is good, I have some personal family matters. or My circustances need a change in my attention at the moment, I hope you understand dear brother. I sure love the friends in the congregation - and so on

7

CO handovers

by cantleave in

jw
friends

i have just been reading the thread about co do get togethers and it led me to think of a question that i have had for years.. every three years the co rotate and a circuite will get a new guy to hound the elders.

my question is, what level of handover info does the new incumbent get from the leaving co?

i now they get the congregation reports but is their any exchange of personal information regarding elders personalities / weaknesses, are potential trouble makers identified etc.?

xelder

I filled in to help the CO change in our circuit once. Due to circumstances, the CO had to leave the circuit about 3 months early. I kept the circuit files and would help with the weekly transitions as substitute CO's came each week. The circuit file has a file for each congregation. The contents are mostly utility stuff (who was appointed as servants last few visits-etc) However, if a CO feels that a matter in a congregation may possibly be an issue again, the written letters associated are kept so that the future CO can see them and not start at square one all the time. The more prominent a brother was who became a problem and 'fell from approval', the more likely a letter 'since this man had been given great trust and is probably very capable, but we need to be cautious of him now for some time'. There is definitely a verbal exchange of the lowdown at the changing of the guard. Also, Assembly overseers and PO.s (coordinators now) are sought out for opinions and status, and I was always surprized at how much the comments of these 'heavy' brothers would be relied on.

Usually, the outgoing CO schedules the first few months of the new CO's route since he will be new to the area. The former CO usually assigns the assembly speaking parts for the first upcoming circuit assembly since he knows the brothers who are better speakers and or the 'best' examples.

District speaking assignments are made a different way since congregations possibly attend different District Conventions each year. A varying group of 3-4 brothers meet with the CO around January and decide who in the circuit would be qualified for various types of parts on a District Convention. The recommendations are forwarded to the branch, who then make assigments and send those to the speakers by direct mail. Even though they try to rotate some of the elders who attend this annual meeting, its still a good ol boys club. At this meeting, recommendations are also made for brothers who would be qualified to serve on appeal committees and the special committees.

I hope this helps with what you wanted to know

13

How JW's Label each other (size the other up)

by xelder in

my experience has been that among jw's, its very important that they understand each others spiritual status.

this is accomplished within the first 5 min of meeting a new person.

this is necessary so that they know what kind of person you are.

xelder

My experience has been that among JW's, its very important that they understand each others spiritual status. This is accomplished within the first 5 min of meeting a new person. This is necessary so that they know what kind of person you are. Have you ever noticed when JW's meet a new person, they use a series of comments and questions to establish their own righteousness as well as inquire of the worthiness of the new acquaintance.

How long have you been in the truth? (this establishes a basis for the context for the rest of the discussion. How much you should know by now, if indeed you are worthy of my association)

Oh, my son is in bethel and my daughter is a pioneer ( code for what an awesome spiritual family we are - you should be impressed)

My dad was good friends with Brother Schroeder (etc) - (code for we are among the elite and will drop names to prove it)

I have 2 talks next week before I can get to working on my assembly talk

How big is your congregation - how many elders and pioneers (code - who cares about the widows and orphans)

I enjoyed the latest WT article on __________ (fill in the blank). Did you notice the point in this weeks number 3 talk. (Code for I study and prep for all meetings - just making sure you know how awesome I am - my cong is most fortunate to have me)

If you miss a few meetings, you need to clarify this so that you are still viewed ok. We missed you (code are you getting weak?) Oh you were sick? sorry to hear (code-well if it really was that I will still talk to you) Or - "We were on vacation" "Oh.......(pause)...again? - well gad your back to what's important.

Anyway - with a proper label on the other person, we now know how faithful they are.

12

JW a cult? - what it means to them

by xelder in

with almost 50 years as a jw, i often heard jw's called a cult.

i now realize that to defend this, a kind of straw man has been created.

the wts has simply defined a cult for them as following men (namely ct russel).

xelder

With almost 50 years as a JW, I often heard JW's called a cult. I now realize that to defend this, a kind of Straw man has been created. The WTS has simply defined a cult for them as following men (namely CT Russel). "We survived long past CT Russel, therefore not a cult", they say.

To a JW, they don't think of mind control tactics as a cult definition. When you say cult to a JW, they just think, "I haven't read much about Russel in years or anything he wrote. Therefore, I know I'm not in a cult." They don't even consider shunning, as a cult practice. It was finally the DF shunning that first bothered me the most. When I read scripural proof that DF does not have Biblical support, it really started to wake me up, especially since I had participated in so many judical hearings, which now are my constant regret.