GLTirebiter

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Posts by GLTirebiter

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  23

  Update on my daughter Ali... finally some good news!

  by coffee_black in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've posted several times over the past 6 months about my daughter, ali's severe heart failure due to a virus.

  it has been a roller coaster ride.

  recently her leads from her pacemaker and defibrilator became displaced due to strong coughing due to bronchitis.

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  GLTirebiter

  That's great news! I hope Ali's recovery continues going well.
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  29

  Birthday Warning

  by Luo bou to in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it's my birthday today, i'm 63. i know your thrilled to hear that and are likely to party hard with wild abandonment, but please be careful not to worship me.

  i am only a creature.

  it's ok to worship the gb though.

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  GLTirebiter

  Happy birthday, Lou!
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  69

  Some of my daughter's Artwork

  by lovelylil in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  these are some of steph's (xsk8trboizrhotx) b.t.w.

  for those who haven't figured it out yet it is (ex skater boys are hot).

  these will be featured in an art show next week.

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  GLTirebiter

  Those with talent will paint, sculpt, write, act, dance, and invent.

  Those without still may become critics.

  Follow your dream!
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  84

  In general, what is the ethically correct response if a minor tells you someone is molesting him/her?

  by InterestedOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i was thinking about what the elders are trained to do versus what i personally would do if a minor confided in me that someone was molesting him/her.

  i'm not sure what the ethically correct first response should be.

  my first thought is to contact some kind of law enforcement that specializes in investigating situations like this with people experienced in getting to the truth of the matter.

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  GLTirebiter

  The ethically correct response if a minor should tell you that someone has been or is molesting him/her is to inform their parents or guardians of the child, whose are responsible for rearing that child as to the abuse reported to you by the minor. Your ethical responsibility is discharged once you have informed the child's parents of the crime.

  In such cases reporting it to the parents is commendable, but that does not discharge the legal obligation incumbent upon anyone subject to "mandatory reporting" laws. A first-person report to the authorities designated by law is required. You cannot avoid that responsibility, you must report the situtaion.

  Reporting such matters to one of the elders only wastes time

  That is not the point. This discussion is not about reporting anything to the elders. The question is whether the elders, having a suspicion of molestation, will fullfill their obligation to report it to the proper authorities as required by law.

  but if one of the elders is requested by the victim to report the alleged crime to the authorities -- and by this I don't necessarily mean the child, but the parents or guardians of the child -- then the elder is free to oblige.

  No. An elder subject to a mandatory reporting law must make the report. There is no requirement that they be "requested" to do so, they must report. This is not a matter of "obliging" as a social grace, it is a legal obligation. Even if the parents say not to, they must report!

  You seem to be asking me whether an elder is ethically or legally required to report the alleged crime (since we do not really know that there has been a crime, do we?) to law enforcement officials upon his obtaining knowledge from the alleged victim that he or she has been sexually molested, but what if that elder should unwittingly be filing a false report?

  I am saying they are legally required to report suspicion of molestation as defined in the law. For the very reason you suggest, most states offer protection against claims of false reporting for any report made in good faith. For example (search result from the link in my previous post):

  ---

  Citation: Cal. Penal Code § 11172(a), (b) (LexisNexis through 2008 Ch. 765)
  Statute:No mandated reporter shall be civilly or criminally liable for any report required or authorized by this article, and this immunity shall apply even if the mandated reporter acquired the knowledge or reasonable suspicion of child abuse or neglect outside of his or her professional capacity or outside the scope of his or her employment.

  Any other person reporting a known or suspected instance of child abuse or neglect shall not incur civil or criminal liability as a result of any report authorized by law unless it can be proven that a false report was made and the person knew that the report was false or was made with reckless disregard of the truth or falsity of the report, and any person who makes a report of child abuse or neglect known to be false or with reckless disregard of the truth or falsity of the report is liable for any damages caused.

  ---

  If one of the child's parents or guardians is the one implicated by the minor for molesting him/her, then the ethically correct response would be to report the crime to the police, so that you do not become an accessory after-the-fact by being sworn to secrecy about the matter by the spouse of the abuser. Your ethical responsibility is discharged once you have informed the authorities of the crime.

  This time you got it right. The only way to discharge your responsibility is to report the matter to the police or other legal authority. As for being "sworn to secrecy": such a promise cannot be morally justified, and there is no onus on you for following Caesar's law and God's law by making the report. Indeed, if anyone tries to extract such a promise from you, I say to include that in the report!
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  84

  In general, what is the ethically correct response if a minor tells you someone is molesting him/her?

  by InterestedOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i was thinking about what the elders are trained to do versus what i personally would do if a minor confided in me that someone was molesting him/her.

  i'm not sure what the ethically correct first response should be.

  my first thought is to contact some kind of law enforcement that specializes in investigating situations like this with people experienced in getting to the truth of the matter.

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  GLTirebiter

  (me): The elders' job is to report every case of suspected abuse to the legal authorities.

  (djeggnog): This is not true. It is the victim's responsibility to contact the authorities about the alleged crime

  The law differs with your claim. No amount of "theocratic" circumlocution changes that fact.

  In virtually every state, a person in a position of professional trust is obliged to report suspected child molestation. In most states, that includes members of the clergy (Elders). In many states, that obligation extends to every person, without exception. That is what I have been saying the whole time, and that is the topic of this thread.

  I will not tolerate molesters, and I will not tolerate those who obstruct justice by protecting molesters. If you say that makes me "cold", so be it!
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  23

  It's Carrots birthday

  by watersprout in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it's the big 3 0 for carrot today!.

  happy birthday you vegetable!.

  peace.

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  GLTirebiter

  Happy birthday, Carrot!
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  45

  "and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi jwners!.

  i had the opportunity to speak to a witness aquaintaince today.

  the lord had put him on my heart some years ago.

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  GLTirebiter

  Hello, Stephen, what a pleasant surprise to see your post!

  Blessings to you, too, on this Good Friday.
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  84

  In general, what is the ethically correct response if a minor tells you someone is molesting him/her?

  by InterestedOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i was thinking about what the elders are trained to do versus what i personally would do if a minor confided in me that someone was molesting him/her.

  i'm not sure what the ethically correct first response should be.

  my first thought is to contact some kind of law enforcement that specializes in investigating situations like this with people experienced in getting to the truth of the matter.

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  GLTirebiter

  Again, what I stated about "two witnesses" does not accord with the standard in criminal investigations that are undertaken by law enforcement, but, in fact, is consonant with theocratic investigations that are undertaken by the body of elders in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  These "theocratic" investigations do not mitigate the legal obligation to report all suspected cases of child molestation. Hearing witnesses and conducting an "theocratic investigation" is not part of the legal mandate to report. Going "beyond what is written" in the law, using an amateur investigation as an excuse to not do what the law requires, is neither scriptural nor lawful.

  Neither is it up to the elders to decide whether youths and "unbelievers" are credible witnesses. According to the 1991Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock elder's manual:

  "The testimony of youths may be considered; it is up to the elders to determine if the testimony has the ring of truth."

  "The testimony of unbelievers may also be considered, but it must be carefully weighed."

  Molestation is a criminal matter. It is up to the courts to decide which witnesses are credible, not the elders. The elders' job is to report every case of suspected abuse to the legal authorities. That "we know what's best" attitude is exactly what I meant by "investigator, prosecutor, judge and jury".

  Also from the 1991 Flock elders' manual:

  "Christians are to pay to Caesar what is Caesar's and should obey the laws of the land in all matters where there is no conflict with God's law."

  That is the point I was making: the WT sets its self above the law. They feel empowered to ignore the laws of the land if, in their own judgement, they decide some law should not apply. In this case, that law mandates reporting all suspected cases of child molestation.

  It's ironic that they use Matthew 22 to justify ignoring the law. The context of this passage is that the pharisees were trying to get Jesus to say "Don't pay taxes to Caesar, disobey that law". But Jesus' answer says we are obliged to obey both God's law and Caesar's law.

  what you and others here need to do is learn how to live quietly and to mind your own business

  NO! That would make us culpable for the same offense, ignoring crimes against children! There is both a legal duty and a moral duty to report suspected cases of molesation. Protecting molesters is abetting their crimes, participating in their sins.

  "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." --Edmund Burke

  If we do not speak out against those who hide the offenders, then we are tolerating their action. This comes under the "toleration" clause:

  "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." --US Military Academy Honor Code
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  84

  In general, what is the ethically correct response if a minor tells you someone is molesting him/her?

  by InterestedOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i was thinking about what the elders are trained to do versus what i personally would do if a minor confided in me that someone was molesting him/her.

  i'm not sure what the ethically correct first response should be.

  my first thought is to contact some kind of law enforcement that specializes in investigating situations like this with people experienced in getting to the truth of the matter.

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  GLTirebiter

  exactly what I meant. glad to see some people understand me

  Lee, you worded it clearly in plain English. The problem isn't what you wrote, it's some folks' inability to accept what you said.

  so no matter what the superior authorities might require the accused and his or her victims to do, we are going to investigate the facts of the report made, and if at least two witnesses confirm the report, the matter is established in our minds, regardless of what police and judges do

  So, the WT thinks elders should be the detectives, and the prosecutors, and the judges, and the jury? They aren't! Where in the reporting laws does it mention "investigation" by civilians and "at least two witnesses"? It doesn't! When the WT needs to use so much strained wording to justify what they are telling the elders to do, that's a pretty reliable indication that they are telling them to do the wrong thing.
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  39

  I do NOT have Leukemia

  by Robdar in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some members of the board are aware that i have been having health problems.

  i didn't ask them to keep it secret and so am not sure if any other posters on this forum knew about it.

  for those of you who may care, here is my update:.

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  GLTirebiter

  Great news from both of you! Ms. Ducky, I hope the new treatment works for you.