Posts by JAVA

25

elders visit need advice from ex elders, any

by jurs in

jw
friends

hi eveyone,.

i just got back from vacation.

i missed reading everyones postings.. i just received a call from an elder in my congregation.

JAVA

Hello jurs,

I agree with the many suggestions about having it at your home (your territory, not theirs), and have a hidden tape recorder. They'll not agree about a witness present, so why bother and raise a red flag? A tape recording of a JW Committee Meeting is always damaging because it objectively shows how weird the sect is. It won't help the outcome of the meeting, but it's great to use afterwards because it embarrasses the elders and Tower. (After all, that's what shunning tries to do to former members, so why not turn the tables on the perpetrators?)

Don't waste time trying to prove the Tower's full of it using the Bible. Anyone can use the Bible to justify crazy beliefs, so you'll be spitting in the wind with that technique. You can point out some of the Tower's many flip-flops on various issues, but the elders will turn that around with the "light getting brighter" Watchtower mind-set, and fail to see false prophesies as, well you know, false prophesies (they only see that with other religions).

Let them know you see many problems with the Watchtower, e.g., you don't wish to be part of an organization that controls members with threats of shunning, and you don't appreciate a group that shuns former members who has other thoughts about failed dates. Let them know you mean them no harm, and hope they are Christen enough to do the same, but anyone with a brain knows shunning is harmful (put the shame on them and the Tower where it belongs).

Of course none of this will change the outcome of your meeting, but a tape recording of their bazaar Tower-thinking can be useful. Lots of luck furs; let us know how it turns out--and we would love seeing a transcript of the tape, that really ticks the Tower off!

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

51

In the name of belated wisdom

by Kent in

jw
friends

if we take a critical view on the last weeks events on this board, there is maybe a thing or two to consider.

the board has seen a kind of war, and sarcasms and caustic remarks have been more the rule than the exception in some threads.

usually these ends up adding something positive to the community or the forum where the war raged, and its much like a thunderstorm.

JAVA

Hi Kent,

Just now poor JAVA is the game, he’s the one to be hunted down by the wolf-pack this time.

"Poor JAVA"!!! You just blew your entire argument with that comment, Kent. Retract that from the post immediately before I find a Norwegian lawyer to sue for defamation. Heck, I'll bet I could find a WT lawyer willing to sue without a fee; or as Fredhall would say, "pro bone o."

I want to add this to your excellent post; in addition to cultural differences, time on-line tends to allow one more freedom of expression. You spoke about being on the Net for about 7 years; I've been on nearly as long. The Infamous Norway Three have always been (how shall I say this) a little free with their expressions. The longer I've been on-line the easier it is for me, and I think others too, to become a little more honest in expressing feelings. A newbie enters and is shocked with such expressions (unless they're from Norway, of course).

A large forum such as this has folks from every port, some new on-line and others who can give a line. It's nearly impossible to please all and offend none. That doesn't give us a license to be unkind nor does it mean we need to take crap from someone acting like a jerk.

I have mixed feelings about not stubmling the lurkers; that's a little too Watchtower for me. I don't wish to turn a person off who reads the forum, but doesn't post. However, I'm not going to worry about stumbling others at the expense of freely expressing my thoughts. Folks with questions about the Tower will exit when they're ready to exit without love bombing them on this side of the veil. They're going to find jerks at the Kingdom Hall and on this forum. However, they'll find something here they won't find at the Kingdom Hall--honesty.

Thanks Kent, a good post (except for the "poor JAVA" crap).

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

JAVA

Ros,

As others already pointed out, logic is the driving force behind atheism/agnosticism. Belivers use faith in order to believe. Atheists use logic. That's the answer to the question of this subject line. If there is a deity behind the vale I wish s/he was concerned enough to prove it without asking humans to deny logic. That would be much better than the pick a religion/deity out of the faith-hat concept many believers debate, kill, hate, and die for.

I think many ex-JWs reach a point of thinking, "fooled once, shame on them; fooled twice, shame on me." They start questioning many concepts they held and picked up along the way. When that happens, many use logic as a means of testing concepts they accept. That's why many ex-JWs turn to atheism.

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

37

A Somewhat Surprising Letter

by JanH in

jw
friends

commentary press.

box 43532. atlanta, ga 30336-0532.

770/949-4947; fax 770/949-5601; e,mail: [email protected].

JAVA

Free,

Don't be too hard on Ray, he needs to make a living and pay bills like anyone else. His books are not priced unreasonably, and they've helped countless Witnesses and former Witnesses. I think it's better to give Raymond the benefit of doubt, given the good he's done.

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

3

JW Legal Dept. Speaks out

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

steven sodowski of the wt's legal dept.

gives a talk in a kingdom hall about the recent changes.

real audio, 2 files 30 minutes each.

JAVA

Thanks Randy, looks like the Tower is trying to cover their large ass, and is putting their "new light" spin on it.

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

37

A Somewhat Surprising Letter

by JanH in

jw
friends

commentary press.

box 43532. atlanta, ga 30336-0532.

770/949-4947; fax 770/949-5601; e,mail: [email protected].

JAVA

Alan,

Well crap, that doesn't help in this matter of Jan's letter from CP. I have a lot of respect for Ray. CC has helped many exit, and confirmed what countless former Witnesses thought about the Tower. I believe Web sites using parts of his book only enhance future sales, instead of the opposite effect. I hope Ray is careful about this; I would hate to see him shoot the goose laying golden eggs.

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

37

A Somewhat Surprising Letter

by JanH in

jw
friends

commentary press.

box 43532. atlanta, ga 30336-0532.

770/949-4947; fax 770/949-5601; e,mail: [email protected].

JAVA

Jan,

As you know, copyright laws in the USA go beyond crazy. For example, several professors where I work use text books they've written for some of their classes. However, once a book is printed by a publishing firm, the publishing firm controls copying privileges, not the author. This point was made clear when a professor had to get written permission to make handouts from a book he wrote!

Given this arrangement, Ray Franz could give the okay to copy a chapter, but it's really not up to him to give permission, it's Commentary Press. To make matters more interesting, I've heard Ray owns Commentary Press, but don't know if this is true. If it's true, Ray could be doing a "good cop, bad cop" thing in order to protect his livelihood, which is not a bad thing--except it's a pain in the ass for people like you and others who promote C of C!

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

28

"Have I committed the unforgiveable sin?&q...

by LDH in

jw
friends

*** g94 11/8 20 have i committed the unforgivable sin?

masturbation is an unclean habit.

(2 corinthians 7:1) however, the bible does not class it with serious sins such as fornication.

JAVA

open_mind,

I see you're new here--Welcome to the group!

You addressed a serious comment to Fredhall, and as usual, he couldn't give you a serious answer. Fredhall is our on-line moron who types a few misspelled words in various threads. Don't even try imagining he or she has a brain--his nitwit posts are an example of what happens when a person spends too many hours selling Watchtowers.

Again, welcome to the group!

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

7

Social Denial

by Victor_E in

jw
friends

the year is circa 1994; i go to my driveway to pick up the sunday paper to read.

on the front page is the story of a serious car accident.

one person was killed he was a passenger in one of two cars that were racing; he got decapitated as a cable cut through the windshield of one of the cars.

JAVA

Nothings sadder then a Df'd person who still belives in it!!!!

I agree completely with the above statement. These people act like zombies and go around like the walking-dead. The Watchtower retains a supernatural hold over them as they await punishment from Jehovah. They remain stalled, have low self-esteem, and suffer from depression. Until they realize the Tower is not God's mouthpiece, and is nothing more than another high-control sect, they remain in the class of "nothing sadder."

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop

21

Get a life - stop posting. Why?

by philo in

jw
friends

newbies and others are often saying, "move on", in other words, get a life, remove yourselves from the influence of wtism completely.

there are many good answers to this, but i think there is one answer, which has not been much considered.

the international 'apostate' world, to which we contribute, has mushroomed in the last 10 years in: numbers, public profile, influence on the wts policies (and in jws awareness), and in all areas of knowledge about the wt.

JAVA

Alan,

Thanks, I appreciate seeing your abstract on this topic.

I used to post on the Jesus-Witnesses discussion group, and was invited by Alan to join in on a small group that became known as Philia. The group started out by adding email addresses to the cc column. I was on Philia when there were about a dozen or more members. Reading Alan's post was a walk down memory lane--thanks again!

--JAVA

...counting time at the Coffee Shop