Posts by Awen

6

The other sheep

by Truthexplorer in

jw
friends

i recently spoke to my mother and wife (separately) to explain what jesus meant when he was talking in john ch 10 about 'the other sheep'.

for my wife, i wrote out in pencil and 'diagrammes' the explanation.

she of course said i was criticizing the society.

It has been my understanding for some time that since the beginning of Christ's ministry all person's have had a two-fold hope which is dependent upon how they receive the message and how they act upon it.

Matthew 7:21

Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

2 Peter 3:13 "But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

The class distinctions are purely a JW invention. All persons should partake of the memorial emblems as they await Christ's return. Being selected as part of the "little flock" or anointed does not somehow make a person better than someone who has not been selected, but rather lays a bigger responsibility upon them. Those who are "anointed" have no guarantee of getting into heaven, they merely have a token of a possibility of such. The decision isn't made until right before the Great Tribulation starts when they are "sealed" right before their deaths.

J.F. Rutherford's speech was merely an attempt to substantiate the GB's hold over the organization and put forth the notion that the "other sheep" should be in subjection to the Org, since only the GB had the holy spirit in a way that the Other sheep did not. This was a purely political move and not one backed by the scriptures.

According to the above scriptures, not all person's living in the first century or since were of the 144,000, otherwise why mention the new earth? As the years went by, some person's would be chosen and out of those chosen, if they proved faithful to death, would receive their "crown of life". With the appearance of the "New Anointed" it becomes clear that the number hasn't been fulfilled, despite the GB's saying otherwise. Jesus mentions this occurrence at Matthew 20:1-16 which I feel is not only a parable, but a prophecy of our modern times:

Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 "About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5 So they went.

"He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

7 "‘Because no one has hired us,' they answered.

"He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

9 "The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

13 "But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

To me, the new anointed represent those ones who were hired last and the attitude of the GB represents the attitude of those who were hired first. It's not our place to determine who should be paid what, but to just be thankful the work is done and to receive whatever payment Jesus deems worthy of our work for him in the "vineyard" of this earth.

It's noteworthy to mention Jesus' attitude towards those who do not receive their brothers with joy and who persecute them for questioning WT doctrine, especially when it questions the 1914 date and the NGO fiasco:

Matthew 24:48-51 (New International Version)

48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,' 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

54

WTS: creative days took aeons - WT Feb 15th, 2011

by undercover in

there's already a couple of threads discussing this particular issue of kool-aid version of the wt, but i just had to start another after reading about the creative days mentioned in this issue.. we debate from time to time if the wts has ever officially retracted their doctrine that the earth and all things created are less than 50,000 years old.

there's been some quotes that show them waffling on the age of the planet itself but still sort of holding to the notion of all creation happening within a defineable 7 day period.

how long is a creative day?

Awen

I knew of the 7k creative day and just like now I dismissed it then as being fallacy. To me, the entire creation account in Genesis was to tell a very complex story in simplistic terms that any child could understand. Much like Jesus saying that if you have faith the size of a mustard grain, then you can move mountains. Not literal mountains, but mountainous problems. So goes Genesis. I never trusted the GB, after all they're just men. Even the Apostles admitted they didn't have full knowledge of everything and wouldn't have that knowledge until Christ returned (which still hasn't happened).

I have never been able to fathom why people take the GB's every word as gospel and throw out their own good sense in the process. Jeremiah 10:23 has been a constant source of comfort to me when issues such as these have arisen. "I well know O Lord that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his own step."

Then again, I was always one of the black sheep witnesses who was never fully in step with the Borg. I don't fault people who did believe everything that came out of Bethel, I just don't understand it considering the Apostles constantly warned Christians against deifying people.

182

Please share a quote that you enjoy...

by nvrgnbk in

jw
friends

nothing contributes so much to tranquilize the mind as a steady purpose--.

a point on which the soul may fix its intellectual eye.. mary shelley.

Awen

Isaiah 42:19 "Who is blind but my servant, and deaf like the messenger I send? Who is blind like the one committed to me, blind like the servant of the LORD?"

It sums up the WTS and GB quite nicely.

55

shunning is love - Feb 15 2011 Watchtower

by jj123jj123 in

18 if you face a similar situation, please remember that jehovah sympathizes with you.

by cutting off contact with the disfellowshipped or disassociated one, you are showing that you hate the attitudes and actions that led to that outcome.

however, you are also showing that you love the wrongdoer enough to do what is best for him or her.

Awen

Interestingly enough the Apostle Paul states at 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 that when a person repents, the Brothers and Sisters should reaffirm their love by accepting the sinner back into the congregation. Obviously this isn't done by JW's who make the repentent one wait for a prolonged period of time, going directly against Paul's admonition at 2 Cor 2:7 "Now, however, it is time to forgive and comfort him. Otherwise he may be overcome by discouragement." Also what is left out is many Bible Scholars state (as do the JW's in Scripture Inspired book) that the period of time that elapsed between Paul receiving the first letter about the man who took his father's wife into his bed, his response, the Corinthian congregation's response and Paul's second letter was no more than 6 months of elapsed time. In other words his reinstatement was immediate, not prolonged in many months or even years as is commonly practised by JW's. The procedure has nothing to do with love, but rather the GB and Elders exercising their "authority" and making their point to the sinner and congregation that following theocratic guidlines is more important than the rule of love. Something that is never mentioned is this: How did the ones in Corinth know the man had repented IF they had no contact with him? Since meetings were held in private homes (that he could no longer attend) and if they practiced shunning to the degree that JW's do today, how is it, that by not greeting or speaking to him in any way that they became aware of his repentence? Obviously they did speak to him in some fashion and thus were able to relate to Paul the person's repentence. The WTS oversteps the scriptures and sets their own guidelines, thus fulfilling the words of Jesus at Matthew 15:7-9 "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesized about you people. 'These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God'.

How long a person stays disfellowshipped also seems to directly correspond to how popular the offender was in the congregation. In my home congregation a long time friend, a professed anointed one and elder committed adultery. He was disfellowshipped allof 3 months. Many were shocked by how short his disfellowshipped lasted, compared to others who committted similar offenses, but who had never been elders, not "anointed" and who had been witness for a much shorted duration than this man.

49

What made you start questioning: people or doctrine?

by In in

let us know what got you questioning wbts in the first place.

i've got a theory that it starts with people hurting us and only then does the "apostate" turn to looking at the beliefs.. anybody who started questioning beliefs first?.

Awen

For me it was doctrine. The unscriptual ban on smoking, the unscriptual ban on men growing beards (something God made us able to do, which was seen as a crown of beauty in ancient times), the numerous failed prophecies and what the Bible said about false prophets. The outright lies the GB told us about their role in the Holocaust and how they "stood firm against Hitler" even at the cost of so many JW lives. The misapplication of scriptures concerning blood transfusions, and the list goes on and on. I questioned for years and prayed for years for God to reveal the truth about himself to me, which he did and subsequently I left.

Then it was the false friends who only hung out with me (when I was an unbaptized publisher) so they could count that time as field service. When I was baptized, suddenly they were all too busy and I was left to fend for myself. The lack of charity work, feeding the homeless, spending millions of dollars to refurbish the Stanley Hotel (featured in JW's: The Organization Behind The Name), using it for Gilead graduations and how extravagant it was, yet many other brothers in poorer countries were meeting in tents. I was so ashamed to identify myself as a JW.

69

I feel ashamed of some of you

by Lady Lee in

jw
friends

i did not sleep well last night.

i tossed and turned until 4 am .

got up and decided to see what was going on.. i am so disappointed in some of you.. simon posted a thread requesting people not post links to the new shepherding book.

Awen

I haven't visited for almost a year because way back when people were attacking active JW's calling them all manner of names. If we want to lay the responsibility of our lives down on someone's doormat, we need look no further than our own dwelling place. We chose to stay. We let fear control us. Fear of the words that men uttered and not trusting in the words of Jesus who said "Come to me, all of you who are weary and loaded down with burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Matthew 11:28.29

I say this not to condemn anyone but to remind everyone that many are where we once were. They are on the verge of making a huge decision that will impact the rest of their lives. When we went through this ourselves all we wanted was a listening ear, a kind smile and a reassuring comment that it will all get better.

Then they come here and get the same thing they get in the Kingdom Hall.........

21

Any ex-JW's going to a different church? If so, which one?

by 1Robinella in

jw
friends

since i've been out of the jw religion, i've had no desire to attend any churches.

although i've always liked the way many churches look with the (stained glass, etc).

growing up our kh was so ugly and boring to look at.

Awen

I've been thinking about going to a church for some time (been out since 1999) and still haven't done it. I'm of the opinion that I don't need to formally join a church to worship Jesus. The first cetury Christians just gathered together, spoke about their experiences, shared a meal and it was enough. Why can't it still be enough? There are a few exJW's in my area and we talk from time to time, but it's like the 600 lb gorilla in the room that everyone knows is there, but won't acknowledge. That is to say many of us want to talk about our experiences, but don't out of some sense of loyalty to God.

I firmly believe that the WTS will be in for a big surprise when Jesus does finally make his appearance as he will say "I never knew you, get away from me you workers of lawlessness." I worry about the friends and family I've left behind and sometimes think of going back for them. My reason would be that so far the command to "get out of her my people" has not yet been given. I see the WTS as part of Bablyon the Great or more importantly the False Prophet itself.

I sometimes think of Oskar Schindler who said "I could have done more" (talking about the jews he saved from death) in the movie "Schindler's List".

Armed with the knowledge I have now and what the GB actually is (the evil slave) who has turned and started beating their brothers (and sisters) because the Lord has seemingly not appeared when they prohesized that he would I wonder if I can go back and make a difference. I can't save anyone, but I can show them the door. It's up to them whether to walk through it or not.

26

Are some Jehovah's Witnesses delusional?

by asilentone in

.

Awen

Greetings:

At one time or another we were all delusional, or rather in denial. To admit the truth about "The Truth" (even to one's self) is beyond the courage of many people. Many simply aren't ready and no matter how much evidence you lay before them they simply refuse to see it. I often think of a friend of mine who's of the anointed (if you belive in such things) and although he sees these things, he still thinks the WTS can change if shown the error of their ways. This was 2 years ago and I haven't spoken to him since, but I do recall a WT article stating that JW's should only listen to the GB and not other "anointed" Christians and these others haven't been appointed by god to direct his organization. I know he's written numerous letters to the GB about certain issues and they've responded positively, but as time progresses I wonder how long this will continue.

21

number of anointed

by ssn587 in

dont know if i or anyone else has asked this before, but does anyone know how many annointed were supposedly at the last memorial, it seems to be the hidden #.

does that mean they are now the hidden society (said tongue in cheek).

Awen

It's my understanding that Peter said there is a "new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise and in these righteousness is to dwell", in other words even in the 1st Century some had an earthly hope, despite WT teachings to the contrary. As to the literal number it's anyone's guess. As I have stated before it's my opinion that when Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen" he was referencing the little flock in that there would be a great number of partakers but out of those many only a few would be deemed worthy. Jesus also said "to keep doing this in remembrance of me" referring to the eating of the unleavened bread and drinking of the wine at the Great Passover, Nisan 14. The WT concludes that since he was speaking to his Apostles and not also to his disciples then he had concluded a special arrangement with them and not with Christians in general. Yet the scriptures make no mention of any "anointed ones " gathering together every Nisan 14 to celebrate this annual event, nor a class distinction between those with a heavenly hope and those with an earthly one. All Christians are called and out of those some are deemed worthy enough for heavenly life just as there is no mention outside of the Book of Acts of a "Governing Body" who presided over the affairs of Christians of the time.

Thw WTBTS has warped the scriptures for their own ends and when the thruth is finally coming out find themselves unable to explain away their erros which "have massed clear up to heaven".

57

Right to Die Issue Terminally Ill, Hopelessly Paralized, Etc..What Are Your Thoughts?

by frankiespeakin in

first off let me say this is not about me, i'm happy and healthy.

it really about all the suffering i see people going thru.

examples in my family over the years have caused me to think very seriously this.. i could give you a couple of examples and i'm sure some of our posters can tell other horror stories they'd witnessed where perhaps it would have been much better for them and their family if they could have passed away painlessly and with much more dignity.. one of my sisters developed breast cancer and died after about a 12month struggle, we saw her waste away to just skin and bones, it was hard on me as well as her two young children and husband.

Awen

Despite what some may say (this being certain religious groups like the J-Dubs) in my opinion the Bible supports the right of individuals to end their lives prematurely, i.e. before their "natural" time. An example can be seen in the person of Enoch in Genesis chapter 5 who was "taken" by God, before his natural time to spare him a horrific death by his persecutors. If that is true, then it's also reasonable to conclude that suicide or assisted suicide is not a sin as many theologians claim. It's merciful to spare someone or yourself an unreasonable amount of pain that may preclude death.

No place in the Bible have I ever read that suicide, be it assisted or otherwise is a sin against God. This is simply one of those theological conundrums dreamt up by the churches in an attempt to control the populace which still lingers about today.