Posts by JCanon

6

1874 v. 1914 date change?a masterpiece... (Part TWO)

by MacHislopp in

the beginning of his second parousia or presence.

this meant that the year of the start of christ?s reign was also the year of his return and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia.

the beginning of his second parousia or presence.

JCanon

Thanks, JC, this is a wonderful article! I note the following good points:

1. That they had the 6,000 years well in mind back then. I didn't realize it was such a focus. So that was interesting.

2. The "450 years" changed to 500 years was also of very interesting note. It was perceived to be an error because they couldn't accommodate the difference between the 480 years from Exodus to 4th of Solomon and and the 450 years of period of Judges down to Samuel. Of course, there is no contradiction. The age of the judges included Moses down to the death of Samuel, which if that was only 450 years, we can presume he died 30 years before the 4th of Solomon. Thus some of the period of the "judges" overlaps the period of the "kings", no problem, no conflict. Samuel died before Saul. Still, we see a rather absolute desperation to make the "chronology" work.

3. AlanF makes a big deal out of the 606BCE vs 607BCE but it's not that big of a point, only a technicality, after all 1914 is 40 years from 1874.

Of course, when you consider that the witnesses are suposed to be the temple organization, God's chosen people, and the light gets brighter and brighter, one looks a little closer at some of their primary doctrines. Thus 1874 is a 120-year "Noah's generation" to 1994, and the "last generation" of 1914, the generation of a modern man of 80 years (Ps 90:10) is 80 years from 1914 to 1996. So both dates are still Biblical dates as far as chronology is concerned, whether the witnesses ever got it straight as to exactly what significance those dates had.

Finally, those paying really close attention do not confuse "second coming" and "parousia", nor do they ignore a point in which "Michael stands up". Thus, Michael "stands up" (Daniel 12) in 1874, his "parousia" begins in 1914 (events specifically noted to occur in the generation leading up to Christ's second coming, like a procession of events in a caravan preceeding the dignitary), a PERIOD OF TIME, unlike the POINT IN TIME of the "second coming, a specifically dated event that occurs near the end of the "parousia".

1874 -- Michael stands up, beings 120-year 'Noah's day" generation.

1914 - Parousia begins, leading to second coming prior to 80 years expiration in 1994, begins "last generation"

1994 - Ends "last generation" of 120 years from 1874 and 80 years from 1994 and occurs just after the "second coming".

Thanks, again for the details!!!

JCanon

32

SECRET INFO FROM ANNUAL MEETING.

by integ in

i received this e-mail from a friend of a friend of a friend who was at the secret annual meeting.

hi brothers and sisters,.

our 2004 year text, matt.

JCanon

Just for the record, the "end" in the Bible is synomymous with the end of God's spiritual exile from Israel followed by their return to their homeland. There is a specific "appointed time" therefore, for the nations to rule over and trample Jerusalem and for the Jews to be in exile.

So when did the "end" come? Simple. When did the Jews regain control over Palestine is when the "end" of gentile rule ended there?

1947 was the "end".

32

SECRET INFO FROM ANNUAL MEETING.

by integ in

i received this e-mail from a friend of a friend of a friend who was at the secret annual meeting.

hi brothers and sisters,.

our 2004 year text, matt.

JCanon

) "Keep on the watch,.....Prove yourselves ready," He spoke about no one knowing the day or hour, only the Father. Therefore the admonition to be ready at anytime or any day. He emphasized that in Noah's day they took no note. They said that even among Jehovah's people there is not a sense of readiness. We are getting side-tracked due to the fact that the end has not come yet.

The Bible prophesied the evil slave would be thinking "his master is delaying", proving the Bible prophesied that not only would the apostate temple organization (JWs) not have the correct dating in the last days, or at least the correct understanding. Thinking that the master has not arrived yet has as much to do with having the wrong dating as having the wrong expectation as to how he will arrive, which is doubly why the JWs are still expecting him.
The Bible says that he "comes as a thief" for those with the wrong information, meaning he will have already arrived and robbed them by the time they "wake up". Thus when they finally do get the dating right, they will have discovered he had already arrived secretly, "like a thief in the night" while they were sleep.
JC

34

"Why Are Jehovah's Witnesses So Sure That They Have The Right Religion?"

by minimus in

that question is raised on page 709 in the "proclaimers" book.

notice the answer the book gives.

"because they believe and accept what the bible says as to the identifying marks of true worshipers.

JCanon

JCanon----I must say, You sound just like a Witness! It all seems sooo obvious to you. We should all be able to see how simple this is! I think the only difference I have with you is that the JW's and Jews aren't the fulfillment. It's the Jews, gypsies and homosexuals that fulfill the Holocaust prophecies. Everybody whom the Nazis targeted were given special patches to wear on their clothing. Homosexuals had theirs (I'm not sure what, a pink something...), Jews had theirs (Yellow star) and Jehovah's witnesses had theirs (purple triangle). At the Holocaust Museum where all the badges are listed you can read "Jehovahs Witnesses" right there with the rest. Why is it you are excluding them? "Gog of Magog" (white European descendants of Japheth) were supposed to desolate "Judah", the "disgusting thing causing desolation". This is primarily focussed on natural Israel, the Jews. But for the parallel spiritual fulfillment, "spiritual Israel", Jehovah's witnesses, had to be part of this focus as well, which they were. They didn't suffer as much as the Jews, but they were not excluded. Ironically though, Hitler persecuted them because he thought the secretive Jews were backing them up financially; it wasn't because of their beliefs in any way(except maybe because they didn't join the military) They claim they were not connected with the Jews but the deep roots of Freemasonry and the witness organization go way back. Anyway, that's only MY interpretation. I'm either right or right....oops! I mean I'm either right or WRONG...(tee hee, sorry). You can believe what you wish.... JCanon

34

"Why Are Jehovah's Witnesses So Sure That They Have The Right Religion?"

by minimus in

that question is raised on page 709 in the "proclaimers" book.

notice the answer the book gives.

"because they believe and accept what the bible says as to the identifying marks of true worshipers.

JCanon

JCanon----I must say, You sound just like a Witness! It all seems sooo obvious to you. We should all be able to see how simple this is! I think the only difference I have with you is that the JW's and Jews aren't the fulfillment. It's the Jews, gypsies and homosexuals that fulfill the Holocaust prophecies. Everybody whom the Nazis targeted were given special patches to wear on their clothing. Homosexuals had theirs (I'm not sure what, a pink something...), Jews had theirs (Yellow star) and Jehovah's witnesses had theirs (purple triangle). At the Holocaust Museum where all the badges are listed you can read "Jehovahs Witnesses" right there with the rest. Why is it you are excluding them? "Gog of Magog" (white European descendants of Japheth) were supposed to desolate "Judah", the "disgusting thing causing desolation". This is primarily focussed on natural Israel, the Jews. But for the parallel spiritual fulfillment, "spiritual Israel", Jehovah's witnesses, had to be part of this focus as well, which they were. They didn't suffer as much as the Jews, but they were not excluded. Ironically though, Hitler persecuted them because he thought the secretive Jews were backing them up financially; it wasn't because of their beliefs in any way(except maybe because they didn't join the military) They claim they were not connected with the Jews but the deep roots of Freemasonry and the witness organization go way back. Anyway, that's only MY interpretation. I'm either right or right....oops! I mean I'm either right or WRONG...(tee hee, sorry). You can believe what you wish.... JCanon

34

"Why Are Jehovah's Witnesses So Sure That They Have The Right Religion?"

by minimus in

that question is raised on page 709 in the "proclaimers" book.

notice the answer the book gives.

"because they believe and accept what the bible says as to the identifying marks of true worshipers.

JCanon

I think the witnesses have a knowing sense abou them being the "true" religion because they are part of the "temple" organization that was prophesied to be active and public, preaching the "good news" worldwide in fulfillment of prophecy. The JWs are thus, generally, a special part of "spiritual Israel" whereas the Jews are "fleshly Israel". Note that both groups were targets of the Nazis, specifically. The HOLOCAUST was the "great tribulation" that was prophesied that would come about.

At any rate, the most confusing aspect of identifying JWs with being the "true religion" is obviously because they have so many false prophesies, how can that be?

The answer is in close examination of scripture wherein we find this organization is like a field that was sown first with good seed but then, before that seed even came up the Devil sewed weeds. Thus when the new blades came up, both wheat and weeds were together. What to do? It was decided to let the "wheat and weeds growup together until the harvest"...then there would be a separation.

Thus the organization that is chosen to fulfill the preaching of the "good news" and to be associated with other special "God's chosen people" and "temple" issues, is an organization that will be mixed with wheat and weeds.

Thus when Christ returns, to the wheat in this organization full of weeds he says: "Have no fear LITTLE FLOCK for I intend to give you the kingdom..." and he goes in and separates the wheat from the weeds, the sheep from the goats. Thus he takes out of this organization his sheep and leads him to "other sheep, not of this fold."

Another unfortunate event that occurs within the organization, of course, is the apostasy of the leadership, the GB. This organization also becomes the oganization of the "evil slave" and the "man of lawlessness" and the "false prophet".

So basically, even though this organization will preach the "good news" and basically have more critically accurate Biblical understanding than the religions of Christendom, they still would end up with a false prophet as a leader and thus when Christ comes at the time of "harvest" he will lead out his sheep from this organization after which this organization along with Christendom will be thrown into the lake of fire "while still alive".

COVENANT ENDS FOR ALL "CHOSEN PEOPLE" IN 1996.

I won't go into the chronology details now, but basically, as a final note, the two "chosen people", Jews and JWs, the focus of the Nazis during the Holocaust are connected with a "covenant" that wil be in force until the end of the 70th week. But that implies the covenant will end at the end of the 70th week too, and thus it does. After 1996, therefore, there are no official "God's chosen people" set aside, neither Jew nor JWs.

The 70th week determination is easy, though. Since we know Christ died at mid-week of the 70th week in 33CE and began his ministry at the beginning of the week in 29CE, that 70th week ends in 36CE. We need only count succeeding periods of 70 weeks from 36CE, therefore, to get to our day. 4 x 490 is 1960. 1960 plus 36CE is 1996. Thus the last 70th week ends in 1996 and that's when the Jewish convenant ends and also the covenant with the "temple" organization, Jehovah's witnesses. After 1996, God does not recognize either of these groups as his chosen peopl. But both groups are fulfilled in Heavenly Spiritual Israel, the "144,000" which is really 1,440,000 who create the final "temple" and "chosen people"

So, in the end, though both "chosen people" had their problems they both served their purposes and their covenants end in 1996 at the end of the last 70th week.

You know, it's interesting that JWs thus understand WHO they are in relation to these prophecies even though nearly all of them are incorrect now. But anything about the "evil slave" the "false prophet" or the Lamb-Dragon beast is a reference to the Governing Body, and the anointed ones of JWs are basically the "sons of the kingdom" that fail to get in for the most part.

Actually, apparently about half get in. The ten virgins represent the witness group, who both nod off spiritually speaking just before the Messiah arrives. When he does they get up and get their lamps together but only 5 of them have extra oil, the other five don't. When they do finally get their lamps burning though, they find out they are locked out of the kingdom and someone else took their place. So it looks like about half of the witnesses who should have become part of the kingdom of 144K miss out. But half of them DO make it and these are called out of the witness organization, spritually speaking, and joined to another camp fo Christ's followers.

JC

6

seventy schmeventy

by peacefulpete in

much time has been expended trying to make sense of the 70 years of desolation claimed in parts of the bible with no success.

i have in the past presented what i feel was evidence that the so called desolation was in fact 49 years in duration and was know as such by one of the authors of daniel.

this is the conclusion drawn by most bible commentaries and reference works.

JCanon

<DIV class=post> <DIV class=quote> <DIV class=post>Interesting post. ; You are probably correct. ; Both 7 and 70 are popular numbers in ancient writings. ; The only way to get 70 literal years is to start counting from 607 which is probably the first year that Israel starting paying tribute to Babylon. ; I believe that most scholars agree that the land was not laid waste until about 585 after Israel "reneged" on the deal. ; A stubborn and stiff necked lot, those Jews, eh?</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV class=post>You know, I might be persuaded to consider the above, claiming the 70 years makes more sense counted from 607BCE. ; ONLY PROBLEM IS that you have to deal with the JEWISH HISTORIAN, JOSEPHUS who claims that the 70 years began in the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>So does it matter what "most SCHOLARS agree" on? ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>NO. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>You have to deal with the historical reference from the Jews themselves as to when their 70 years occurred. ; Thus it was NEVER an issue of interpreting anything vague in the scriptures, whetehr "in Babylon" or "at Babylon" was significant. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>In other words, take the Bible out of the equasion and you still have to deal with Josephus' concept and report, whether right or not, that he thought the 70 years began in the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar, thus introducing 70 years from that time to the first of Cyrus. ; ; Thus what "most scholars" think about the 70 years matters not, because they would be interpreting the BIBLE at this point and thus cease to become scholars and now wear the hat of being "prophet", especially if they think there is any significance to the Biblical reference to the 70 years at all since Josephus tells us exactly where the Jewish 70 years should be placed. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>A similar situation would be like a school kid your age telling you to do something when your mother was right there telling you to do something else. ; Who are you going to listen to? ; Who has the AUTHORITY? ; You know? ; You have Josephus here and you're suggesting that he should have checked with "most scholars" first before he came up with his 70 years theory? ; In the meantime, why didn't the scholars check with Josephus first?</DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>Josephus preempts the "authority" of any scholars from interpreting the Biblical 70 years, since he's a Jewish scholar. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>Bottom line, you have to consider the Biblical reference to the 70 years as a CONTRADICTION if you think the Babylonian records are more reliable, whether you like it or not. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>OR....be academically ineffective.</DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>Here is JOSEPHUS, THE JEWISH HISTORIAN'S THOUGHTS ON THE 70 YEARS.....</DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4> <DIV class=quote> <DIV class=post><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>IN the first year of the reign of<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> ; </SPAN>Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon. God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity. And these things God did afford them; for he stirred up the mind of Cyrus and made him write this throughout all Asia "Thus saith Cyrus the king: Since God Almighty hath appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that God which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem in the country of Judea."</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV> <P> ;</P> <P>PROBLEMS:</P> <P>1. ; ; Definitely mentions 70 years of Jeremiah's prophecy.</P> <P>2. ; Definitely defines "servitude" vs land desolation.</P> <P>3. ; Dates 70 years from last deportation.</P> <P> ;</P> <P>And now you know why "scholarship" is very overrated.....obviously. </P> <P> ;</P> <P>JCanon</P> <P></FONT></SPAN> ;</P>

51

Jesus came in 1874 and then changed to 1914, no problem, per FDS

by garybuss in

prefatory note .

(to watch tower reprints wtb&ts 1919) .

the watch tower is unique among all the publications in the world.

JCanon

RE 1914 and 1874.

The Witness organization is God's appointed "temple organization" though it was prophesied the GB would become corrupt and be a false prophet and evil slave. At any rate, there would be a MIXTURE of truth and falsehood, wheat and weeds, sheep and goats.

Thus while 1874 and 1914 are not specifically what they say they are, there are dates that have Biblical significance.

1874 as you know is 40 years before 1914. 1914 begins one type of a generation of 80 years, within period of time the Messiah would arrive, that would be the "last generation" from 1914 to 1994. But 1874 is another markoff for a "generation", called the "generation of Noah" which is 120-year period from 1874 to 1994. So in a sense the beginning of Christ's presence or "standing up" could specifically be dated from 1874 if you wish. His actual return in the flesh would not be until the just before the time runs out for those generations in 1994.

By the way, JWs become another "anti-christ" organization whose saying would be that "Christ did not come in the flesh". Of course, that suggests that Christ would/might appear in the flesh again. Other scriptures confirm that he, indeed would return in the flesh. After all, it's not a SECOND COMING until he returns in the flesh right? He's been around the earth and seen (i.e. by Paul and others) after his resurrection, so it's not as though he went up to heaven and nobody saw him in the vicinity of the earth. The SECOND coming means his second appearance IN THE FLESH. He's been back many times after he died, obviously.

JCanon

8

jeremiah source material

by peacefulpete in

just a quick example of how the study of the bible without pious blinders on provides new insight.

a couple years ago i found a commentary on jeremiah that opened my eyes.

it was news to me that the book was one of the most easily demonstrated examples of textural corruption.

JCanon

You know, I sort of am embarrassed to admit it, but it's true, the Bible does go out of its way to distract non-believers and has many things that only can be revealed by holy spirit as secret understanding to the anointed. So if you're not of the "anointed" the Bible might prove to be confusing and diappointing. But then again, it was written for them and not entirely for the public at large. The anointed understand how the Bible works and it's secret, esoteric message which is primarily for them.

JC

99

What resurrects, the person or a perfect copy?

by JH in

i remember my boss asking me once this question, since he knew i was a witness.

he asked, "what resurrects, the body, the soul, what?.

he knew that witnesses believe in the resurrection of the dead on earth, in a different physical body during the millennium.. i told him that it won't be the same physical body, and maybe won't be identical, but it's the same person.

JCanon

Nope. If you reproduce 10 copies of your brain (and we assume that God can reproduce even quantum states exactly -- after all, he's God), how would you choose which one was the "original"?

We completely replace our own selves every 8 years don't we? Don't our cells wear out and get replaced?

Plus that doesn't address people who will become spirits, angels in heaven? How are they the same? Are they the same person now that they are an angel?

So I think the Bible interprets resurrection rather broadly and not specific to our limited concepts of what that might be. The Bible knows what it MEANS even if we don't? exactly?