Posts by UnDisfellowshipped

22

Michael Jackson is going to GEHENNA!!!!

by whathehadas in

this was stated by a over zealous pioneer to another witness in my congregation.

what a self righteous stament.

being the fact that jesus has been given the right to judge(matthew 25:31-33).

UnDisfellowshipped

Cameo-d said:

"You all assume you have the right to judge him and you do so based on tabloid rumors. You vent your hatred of child molesters and use him as a scapegoat for it when you were not even there or have any way to know for sure."

I try not to judge anyone. Michael did do some strange things, but I believe he may have been innocent. There must have been some reason why the jury found him not guilty.

In America, you should be considered innocent until proven guilty (or at least until you have some good, hard evidence pointing toward his guilt).

But, yes, according to several Watchtower publications, Michael Jackson, and many others like him, will be spending eternity in Gehenna (The Lake of Fire and Brimstone).

Some of their newer publications have gotten more wishy-washy on this doctrine, but occasionally it still shows up in their writings.

347

Are You Paul or are you Saul?

by reniaa in

jw
friends

this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.

both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.

going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.

UnDisfellowshipped

Pistoff,

You said:

"I don't expect that Paul would write to please me; I am saying that the teachings and sayings of Jesus appeal to me.The control and abstention from sexuality that Paul espouses is not realistic, not necessary, and is consistent with some of the extreme sects of Paul's time. That does not appeal to me. Since belief is about choice, that is my choice, and it is not because I want to have a reason to discount Paul."

First, let me say that I am happy to hear that the teachings and sayings of Jesus appeal to you. At least right there we have some common ground.

But, have you actually compared what Jesus and Paul taught side-by-side? Because, from everything I've read in the New Testament, Paul and Jesus taught the same things.

* Jesus taught that it was wrong to even LOOK at a woman with lust, and that lusting is a sin that leads to Gehenna if you do not repent. This is what Paul taught in his letters.

* Jesus taught that any and all sex outside of marriage ("fornication") was a sin that leads to destruction if you do not repent. This is the exact same thing that Paul taught in his letters.

* Jesus taught that calling someone a "worthless fool" is a sin that will lead to Gehenna unless you repent. Paul taught similar things.

* Jesus taught that He is the only way to The Father, and that if you do not repent and put your trust in Him as Lord and Savior, you are going to Gehenna. (John 8:24; John 3:16-18) Paul taught the exact same thing in his letters.

* Jesus taught that getting a divorce (except on the grounds of fornication) and marrying someone else is the same as committing adultery in God's eyes. Paul taught the same thing in his letters.

* Jesus said that He was going to return one day with His angels and destroy all of the wicked and save all of His people. Paul taught the same thing in his letters.

* Jesus taught that we must love everyone, even those who may be our enemies. Paul taught the exact same thing in his letters. (Have you read Romans chapter 12 and 1 Corinthians chapter 13?)

And about Paul's view of women: There are various ways that those passages have been interpreted by Christians. I recommend that you do some more research into that.

Also, Paul elevated and exalted women when he said that Christian men and women are equal in God's eyes:

Galatians 3:27-28: For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

96

Is the Governing Body the Only Channel of Communication between God and Men?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

let's take my questions one at a time (since you said i had posted too many on my other thread):.

* can you please explain to me, using only the bible, why anyone should believe that today's governing body of jehovah's witnesses (or the "faithful slave class" of the jehovah's witnesses), is the "sole channel of communication" between god and men?.

* in addition, can you explain why we should believe that christ's parable of the "faithful and discreet slave" was predicting a "class" of anointed christians who would give orders to all other christians, instead of simply teaching that faithful christians will be rewarded by christ when he returns?.

UnDisfellowshipped

Spike, I just want to thank you for that heartfelt reply, and I wanted to say that I was actually touched by the honesty and genuineness of your post. Thank you.

You said:

• If I may paraphrase, you're asking how anyone (me, for one) can keep going to the KH, diligently try to keep up with the reading of JW literature, and do their best to apply what they read and hear there, including discussing and supporting that message.

Well, actually, my main question is, what specifically is in the Bible that has led you to believe that today's Governing Body is the only channel God is using to communicate Bible truth to people on earth?

You said:

• For me, it comes down to the way they've put the package together: the interesting variety of meeting parts and articles regarding the Good Book that I probably would have stopped reading otherwise. They gave me a more useful way to think for myself, and about myself and others, even God, the angels, and concepts that I didn't even think of before. I have become more mature in my ability to think of the consquences of my actions. Choice has become part of my vocabulary, and increasingly evident in my life, if I do say so myself.

I am very glad that they have helped you, and I'm glad you have found their articles helpful.

But, I would like to ask you to explain a little more about how they "gave you a more useful way to think for yourself," because as far as I have understood it, the Watchtower publications teach that Jehovah's Witnesses must fight against independent thinking, because it originates with Satan, and they must not go against what the Governing Body or Elders teach, otherwise they are "causing divisions."

"But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us." (Watchtower, 9/15/89, Page 23)
"Apostates often appeal to the ego, claiming that we have been deprived of our freedoms, including the freedom to interpret the Bible for ourselves. (Compare Genesis 3:1-5.) In reality, these would-be defilers offer nothing more than a return to the nauseating teachings of “Babylon the Great.” (Revelation 17:5; 2 Peter 2:19-22) [...] True, such smooth talkers may look outwardly clean in a physical and moral way. But inside they are spiritually unclean, having given in to prideful, independent thinking. They have forgotten all that they learned about Jehovah, his holy name and attributes. They no longer acknowledge that all they learned about Bible truth—the glorious hope of the Kingdom and a paradise earth and the overturning of false doctrines, such as the Trinity, the immortal human soul, eternal torment, and purgatory—yes, all of this came to them through “the faithful and discreet slave.”—Matthew 24:45-47." (Watchtower, 11/01/87, Pages 19-20)
"Avoid Independent Thinking. From the very outset of his rebellion Satan called into question God’s way of doing things. He promoted independent thinking. ‘You can decide for yourself what is good and bad,’ Satan told Eve. ‘You don’t have to listen to God. He is not really telling you the truth.’ (Genesis 3:1-5) To this day, it has been Satan’s subtle design to infect God’s people with this type of thinking.—2 Timothy 3:1, 13. How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God’s visible organization." (Watchtower, 01/15/83, Page 22)
"Fight Against Independent Thinking. As we study the Bible we learn that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization. (Ephesians 4:4, 5; Matthew 24:45-47) Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: “This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe.” This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous? Such thinking is an evidence of pride. And the Bible says: “Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.” (Proverbs 16:18) If we get to thinking that we know better than the organization, we should ask ourselves: “Where did we learn Bible truth in the first place? Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God’s organization?” No, we cannot!—Compare Acts 15:2, 28, 29; 16:4, 5." (Watchtower, 01/15/83, Page 27)
"It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant Scriptural counsel to his people, and it requires careful study and attention to details in order to apply this information, to get a full understanding of the principles involved, and to assure ourselves of right thinking on these matters. It is in this way that we “are thoroughly able to grasp mentally with all the holy ones” the fullness of our commission and of the preaching responsibility that Jehovah has placed on all Christians as footstep followers of his Son. Any other course would produce independent thinking and cause division." (Watchtower, 05/01/64, Pages 277-278)
"Jehovah uses his organization to teach and feed his people. (Matt. 24:45-47) Hence believe without suspicion the truth set forth by the “faithful and discreet slave.” (Matt. 24:45; 1 Cor. 13:7) [...] The student must express himself as he understands the truth. (Gal. 6:6) He cannot have independent thinking." (Watchtower, 09/01/62, Page 524)

So, after reading those Watchtowers, how can you say that they have helped you to "think for yourself"?

You said:

• They have given me access to a modern language translation of the Inspired Scriptures that always draws me back to, despite having literally dozens on my library shelves. I feel more and more comfortable with the New World Translation with References as the years pass.

That's good. I commend you for studying the Scriptures!

You said:

• They have given me access to a practical way to understand the prophecies, a more-comprehensive understanding of history: a history that I feel I fit into and can express (at least in part) to others, relationships that I feel I can grow in, a perspective that keeps me going whether humans around me understand me or not.

Would you please elaborate on what you mean when you say they gave you access to "a practical way to understand prophecies"? Would that be the Great Tree Prophecy in Daniel having a double-meaning? Or the Generation of 1914? Or the 6,000 years of mankind's existence in 1975? Or the famous Assembly Talks given in the 1920's that "fulfilled" prophecies in Revelation? Or that the faithful ones of old would be resurrected by 1925? Or that Armageddon would come in 1914? Or that Christ returned invisibly in 1874?

You said:

• They have given me consistency, which I didn't have access to before. They have given me real dignity and respect and purpose and guidance, even though I was more accustomed to the false versions of these. They have given me the tools to forgive and accept forgiveness. Their imperfection has allowed me to accept and work with by my own and that of others.
• They have given me the tools to enable me to fill-in what had felt hollow before. A day's text and comments to review each day, to help me work on my personality and help me progress in understanding and actually grow in my relationships with others. I'm more able to endure than before. I'm more able to focus, and switch my focus, than before.

But couldn't you (or anyone else) have gotten the same things from just reading and studying the teachings of Christ (for example the Sermon on the Mount) without Watchtower publications? Are Christ's (and the Apostles') inspired teachings alone not sufficient for us? Do we also need non-inspired, fallible, imperfect teachings added on to the inspired teachings?

You said:

• They want to accept and present what Jehovah actually is, his values, his loves, his hates, his gifts, his perspective. This obedience and submission is seen even in their times of boldness and in their times of silence. I feel more in place, even though I may not be officially accepted as such.

I commend anyone who truly wants to present Jehovah as He actually is. However, the only place we can discover that is in His inspired Word, and from His Spirit, not from imperfect, sinful, men who teach that we must not have independent thinking.

37

The Case for Unitarianism

by UnDisfellowshipped in

* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.

(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).

(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).

UnDisfellowshipped

AllElseFails, thank you for your reply.

You said:

"The law is a great example - the law carries authority though it is an impersonal thing. The law has the authority of the government behind it, just as the spirit (if it is impersonal) has the authority of Jehovah behind it. As you agree the "name" in this verse could refer only to the authority - certainly not a clear point either way to build belief on. The law can be refered to in many ways - as having intent, as being fair,"

My Reply:

I agree that things that are impersonal can (and have been) personified in the Bible, such as The Law.

However, I cannot see why Jesus would have commanded people to baptize in the authority (or name) of The Father, The Son, and an impersonal force. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially if that impersonal force is a part of God, then why does it need to mentioned separately? The only reason that I can see for The Spirit to be mentioned separately from The Father is if The Spirit is a different Person.

The same reasoning applies to many other verses in the New Testament. Why would the Bible writers give credit to an impersonal force (separately from the credit that is given to The Father), especially since this impersonal force would be part of God the Father? Why not just give the credit to God the Father? The only explanation I can find is that The Spirit must have been a distinct Person who should be honored equally with The Father and The Son.

You said:

"I do not see in 16:14 the phrase "given everything he received" I don't see anything that indicates that at all. Again maybe the New World Translation has changed something here? I don't see his name or authority as clearly part of this exchange."

I apologize, I meant to say John 16:14 AND 15. Not just verse 14. Here is how both verses read in the New American Standard Bible:

John 16:14-15 (NASB): "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Jesus said that all things that The Father has are His, and that The Spirit takes from Jesus all the things that He shares with The Father. In other words, all Three Persons share all things.

Look at some other verses where Jesus teaches that He shares all things (and all authority or power) with The Father:

John 3:31, 35 (ESV): He who comes from above is above all. ... The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

John 17:2 (ESV): since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

John 17:10 (NASB): and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

You said:

"I agree and have no good explanation for this except that the writers have poetic license in some of these verses. (lame yeah?) I do not see how a "person could be poured out at Pentacost 33CE or empower Christians through out history. Or be something God gives us if we pray for it."

Good point. It must be one way or the other. Either The Spirit is a Person and the Bible uses figuratively language sometimes when speaking about Him ("pouring out", etc.), or the Spirit is an impersonal force and the Bible personifies it sometimes (calling it "He" and saying it has a mind and will and hears and speaks).

I recommend that you examine very closely all of the verses that speak about the Holy Spirit, and look at the context, and then apply the same reasoning and logic that you apply to whether or not angels, Satan, or the demons are persons or impersonal forces, and then make your decision about whether you believe The Spirit is a Person or impersonal force.

To me, the verses that convinced me that The Spirit was a Person were the ones that say He has a mind, He has His own will, He chooses things, He feels things, and He is always mentioned on an equal level with God and Jesus, and He is given credit for things separately from The Father and The Son.

You said:

"Also would you care to comment on John 17:11's use of "they may be one just as we are." I still think this verse explains the realtionship well. The Son and Father are one the same way we Christians are one - united in purpose and intent. Just as a husband and wife become one in purpose at their marriage."

In that context of John 17, I would say that you're right. Jesus is saying that Christians will be united just like The Father and Son are united (in purpose and will and love).

However, the context is different in John 10.

Starting at John 10:24, the focus is on Jesus' identity. Jesus says that The Father is greater than all, and then He says "I and The Father are One." The Jews then try to stone Him for claiming to be God. Jesus then says The Father is in The Son and The Son is in The Father (in other words, they share the same Nature or Essence). They try to arrest him.

In order to correctly understand any passage, we always have to closely examine the context. The "One" in chapter 10 is Nature, and the "One" in chapter 17 is "unity" or "purpose."

347

Are You Paul or are you Saul?

by reniaa in

jw
friends

this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.

both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.

going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.

UnDisfellowshipped

Reniaa said:

"I think rejection of Paul's word is another sign of Jesus worship. Wanting it all to revolve around Jesus and leave nothing to the firstfruits and co-heirs with him."

My Reply:

That's one of the most false statements I have ever seen in my life.

Paul is the one who taught that EVERYTHING (I mean everything in the Universe) revolves around CHRIST!

I recommend you re-read these verses:

Philippians 1:21 (NWT): For in my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain.

Philippians 3:7-8 (NWT): Yet what things were gains to me, these I have considered loss on account of the Christ. Why, for that matter, I do indeed also consider all things to be loss on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord. On account of him I have taken the loss of all things and I consider them as a lot of refuse, that I may gain Christ

Colossians 1:16-20 (NWT): because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.

Galatians 2:20 (NWT): I am impaled along with Christ. It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ that is living in union with me. Indeed, the life that I now live in flesh I live by the faith that is toward the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me.

Ephesians 1:19-23 (NWT): ...It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

2nd Corinthians 5:10 (NWT): For we must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile.

2nd Corinthians 5:14-15 (NWT): For the love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have judged, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died; and he died for all that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised up.

Paul said that life was all about Christ, our relationship to Him, and pleasing Him. and nothing else is important. If you do not have a relationship with Jesus, you are on very shaky ground, you are building on quicksand, and you need to remember that you will one day stand before HIS Judgment Seat.

Are you honoring The Son just as you honor The Father? (John 5:23)

31

they never say "bracketed 'other' here" when reading bible either......

by oompa in

so that word is added a few times in colossians and there many other [bracket] words in the nwt as if that makes it okeydokie...yet when these scriptures are read from any platform or stage, the reader never mentions it...so if some poor worldly person at a convention is just listening and not reading a bible...he has just heard a spurious verse....the same is true on all the wt bible readings on tape or cd....imo if you read it spurious...then it is spurious.......just a thought as no good dub would ever admit jws would ever utter such a thing...................................oompa.

UnDisfellowshipped

Oompa,

Good point.

Also, have you seen the new "updated" New World Translation which removes the brackets completely? It came out in 2007 I believe. I have one. Very deceptive.

6

Two Classes of Christians

by UnDisfellowshipped in

the watchtower society teaches that there are two different classes of christians -- one that will live forever on earth, and one that will live forever in heaven.. * where does the bible teach this, anywhere?.

the apostle paul wrote this:.

ephesians 4:4-6 (nwt): 4 one body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; 5 one lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one god and father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.. where does paul say that there are two hopes and two bodies of christians?.

UnDisfellowshipped

Leftbelow, great idea! Just added it!

6

Two Classes of Christians

by UnDisfellowshipped in

the watchtower society teaches that there are two different classes of christians -- one that will live forever on earth, and one that will live forever in heaven.. * where does the bible teach this, anywhere?.

the apostle paul wrote this:.

ephesians 4:4-6 (nwt): 4 one body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; 5 one lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one god and father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.. where does paul say that there are two hopes and two bodies of christians?.

UnDisfellowshipped

The Watchtower Society teaches that there are TWO different classes of Christians -- One that will live forever on earth, and one that will live forever in Heaven.

* Where does the Bible teach this, anywhere?

The Apostle Paul wrote this:

Ephesians 4:4-6 (NWT): 4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

Where does Paul say that there are TWO hopes and TWO bodies of Christians?

In addition, where does the Bible say that only 144,000 will have Jesus as their Mediator, be Born Again, and go to heaven, and all other Christians will live on earth, and NOT have Jesus as their Mediator or be Born Again?

The Watchtower Society loves to use the following two verses to "prove" this doctrine:

Luke 12:32 (NWT): “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.

John 10:16 (NWT): “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

But, the best, simplest explanation and exegesis for these verses is that the "Little Flock" were His Jewish disciples, and the "other sheep" were His Gentile disciples who would come into the Congregation later.

Where does Jesus say anything about the "other sheep" not going to heaven, and not being Born Again, and not having Him as their Mediator?

One last question for this thread:

Why does the Watchtower Society teach that the 144,000 in Revelation is a literal number, but all of the other details about them (being virgins, being Jewish males) are symbolic? Plus, the Watchtower teaches that most other numbers in Revelation are symbolic.

3

The Great Tree - 7 Times of Daniel = 1914?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

the 7 times of daniel = jesus returning invisibly in 1914 and being enthroned in heaven?.

daniel 4:23-33 (new world translation):.

23 and because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: chop the tree down, and ruin it.

UnDisfellowshipped

The 7 Times of Daniel = Jesus returning invisibly in 1914 and being enthroned in heaven?

Daniel 4:23-33 (New World Translation):

23 “‘And because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: “CHOP the tree down, and RUIN it. However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it,” 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. 25 And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.

26 “‘And because they said to leave the rootstock of the tree, your kingdom will be sure to you after you know that the heavens are ruling. 27 Therefore, O king, may my counsel seem good to you, and remove your own sins by righteousness, and your iniquity by showing mercy to the poor ones. Maybe there will occur a lengthening of your prosperity.’”

28 All this befell Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king.

29 At the end of twelve lunar months he happened to be walking upon the royal palace of Babylon. 30 The king was answering and saying: “Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built for the royal house with the strength of my might and for the dignity of my majesty?”

31 While the word was yet in the king’s mouth, there was a voice that fell from the heavens: “To you it is being said, O Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king, ‘The kingdom itself has gone away from you, 32 and from mankind they are driving even you away, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will be. Vegetation they will give even to you to eat just like bulls, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.’”
33 At that moment the word itself was fulfilled upon Neb·u·chad·nez´zar, and from mankind he was being driven away, and vegetation he began to eat just like bulls, and with the dew of the heavens his own body got to be wet, until his very hair grew long just like eagles’ [feathers] and his nails like birds’ [claws].
_________________________________________________________

Somehow, out of that prophecy, which Daniel clearly says was FULFILLED when Nebuchadnezzar went insane for 7 years, the Watchtower Society derives a "secondary fulfillment."

This "secondary fulfillment" is a prophecy that God's Kingdom (active rule over the earth) would be taken away for "7 times." (How do they jump from Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom being taken away to God's Kingdom being taken away?)

Then, they take the "7 years," break it down into days. (2,520 days to be exact, because they use a "prophetic year" of 360 days).

But, we're not done yet! Then, they go with the idea that we should turn each day into a year! ("A Day for a Year Rule").

But, wait!

The Watchtower Society teaches that God's Kingdom (active rule over the earth) was taken away when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Temple, and, get this, the Watchtower teaches that this happened in 607 BC, even though just about all the evidence points to this happening in 586 BC.

So, if we simply calculate 2,520 years from 607 BC, we arrive at 1914!

Wasn't that simple???

The light sure does get brighter and brighter......

37

The Case for Unitarianism

by UnDisfellowshipped in

* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.

(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).

(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).

UnDisfellowshipped

AllElseFails,

Thank you for your reply.

You said:

"Matt 28:19 - I have always understood "in the name of" to be a reference to "by the authority of" - ie "stop - in the name of the law" if there is some other understanding of the original language I'm missing here I would be interested to hear it...."

My Reply:

Many commentaries and scholars believe that Jesus was referring to an actual Name:

The Geneva Bible Study Notes say that it means "Calling upon the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Barnes Commentary says: "In the name ... - This phrase does not mean, here, “by the authority”. "

However, many other commentaries and scholars believe that Jesus was referring to the "authority" of the Father, Son, and Spirit.

And, some believe He was referring to both an actual Name and the authority behind the Name.

In either case, I can't see how an impersonal force would have a Name, and I can't see how an impersonal force can have any authority, especially not authority on an equal level with God.

You said:
"John 17:11 - vague - we are to be one "just" as the son and father are one. This is a statement that repressents 2 things exactly the same. The way in which we are one is the way the Son and Father are the same. That is one in purpose and will. John 16:14 - the NWT says "That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you." Is there something missing in the NWT here? I don't really understand how this says what you are claiming it says. Please explain using orig language and other translations if you have time."

My Reply:

My point with John 17:11 was that the Father has given the Son the Father's Name. And in John 16:14, Jesus has given everything He received to The Holy Spirit (including this Name).

Now, "Name" in those verses may very well mean "authority." If so, then God has given His Son all of His authority, and The Son has given The Spirit all of His authority.

How can Jesus give all of His authority to an impersonal force? And how can an impersonal force hear, speak, teach, have a will, have a mind, be blasphemed, be lied to, etc.?

You said:

"I also believe if you insist on Yahweh instead of Jehovah for the OT God's name Yeshuah would be more appropriate for Jesus - just to be consistent."

I agree. I call God "Jehovah" and "Yahweh."